A continuation of the previous Sun Blog thread, "It's Taboo, Prabhu".

Replies: 137 Comments

Posted by Jahnava @ 12/21/2005 08:09 PM PST

I've made several attempts to untangle the codes on this page. There appear to be numerous code breaks. Short of manually copy/pasting out each of the 130+ postings, there's no easy fix. Consequently, I've started a Part III thread on this discussion. I'll hope to catch any future indent problems as they occur, and are easier to fix. Our posters can assist by double-checking to be sure they've closed any indent codes. Thanks!
Hare Krsna!

Posted by Mark @ 12/21/2005 06:50 PM PST

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Dear Shiva Das,

While you make a good point or two, I need to say that the reason why I decided to defend the Thesis and defend the attack on the discussion of the Thesis was to illustrate that Praghosa Dasa could care less about the essence of the Creative process of sincere problem solving some of us are involved in here, and only wants to sabatoge it in the name of "pure devotion to Srila Prabhupada."

I did this in hopes that he would LEAVE US ALONE.

And you invite him back to the table.

Well, I do not like to compete. It appears that we have different takes on where the point of diminishing returns is reached in engaging Praghosa Dasa.

I believe he is simply envious.

If I am wrong, I could suffer tremendous hardship as a result of speaking this way in public.

I am impure. It is no longer my position to engage the envious.

Perhaps we shall see by how he responds next to your invitation.

Is this enough of a challenge Praghosa Dasa. Prove me wrong and make me suffer. Can you actually read what has been said and reply directly to it without trying to divert the burden?

If not, Shiva Das, please cut it out if you value my participation here, or ask me to leave. I just can't take this anymore, and will not compete.

Hare Krishna

yours in service

Mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/21/2005 02:34 PM PST

Hi Praghosa, you're much more fun to read when you're mad, I tell you what.

Even though Mark summed up some of the problems with your debating style as I have as well e.g If I wrote a criticism of the constitution of the United States and the sum and substance of the critique was "It's bogus" and then someone asked me to say why I think it's bogus and I replied "It's not really what it claims to be", and then someone asks me to explain in more detail and I reply "No, you tell me why it has value".

In jurisprudence in America the defendant doesn't have to prove his innocence or anything else, the prosecution has the burden of proof upon them. So if you're going to accuse the Sampradaya Acarya thesis as being guilty of being a spiritual fraud, then it is up to you to provide proof of that, otherwise your comments/accusations are really just meaningless cheapshots.

The main thrust of the Sampradaya Acraya thesis is about the de-emphasization of the teaching that the diksa guru is the be all and end all of a devotees life, and putting more emphasis upon the siksa guru concept. The argument is about how the emphasis on the diksa guru as the focal point of a devotees spiritual life is an unwise course to take if the diksa guru is not a Maha Bhagavata empowered spiritual master who is directly embracing Sri Krishna.

From a purport Sri Caitanya Caritamrata Adi.1.46

The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which establishes everything to be simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda (Sri Krsna).

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213), has clearly explained that a pure devotee's observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as being one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects.

Following in the footsteps of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami, later acaryas like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord.

Gaudiya Vaisnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu.

Until some Acarya arises who is clearly an empowered soul as described above, who actually is an intimate and confidential associate of Sri Sri Radha Govinda, then it would be prudent to de-emphasize the diksa guru as the be all and end all of a devotees life if their diksa guru is not on the above platform.

That is the main argument put forth by the Sampradaya Acarya thesis. Rocana Prabhu has put forth the concept that seeing Srila Prabhupada as the most recent empowered soul as described above and accepting his guidance in the form of a siksa guru is more meaningful and helpful to people's spiritual advancement then say having their spiritual life revolve around someone who is a madhyama adhikari or less. Instead of worshipping Hansadutta or Ramesvara as being God's pure transparent via-medium who is always in an intimate relationship with Radha Gopinath, and instead of focusing your spiritual life around the worship and service of their every word and desire, it may be a spiritually healthier road to go down to de-emphasize the madhyama or kanistha adhikari guru's worship in favor of more emphasis on the siksa of the latest incarnation of the Lord in the form of the teachings of the latest Maha Bhagavata to grace us.

So Praghosa, could you tell us why you think it is bogus to make such suggestions?

Posted by Mark @ 12/21/2005 01:23 PM PST

Hari Bol!

Finally the "pure devotee" shows his true colors! Hey, this is not a denigration, more like a welcome back to reality Praghosa.

-Name calling. "Mr. Corker"

-Misrepresentation of other peoples thoughts and spoken words.

-Being so angry that you call the Sampradaya Sun a thesis paper as your memory in that moment was short circuited by your krodha.

ie. "The Thesis Sampradaya Sun does not present the conclusions and instructions of our Srila Prabhupada. It is therefore for all intents and purposes useless."

But hey, I know what you meant. I don't cut you slack and point this out because you act as if you don't know what Rocana Dasa means when he refers to "Today's Iskcon" sliding towards mundane religiosity.

As if anyone who is actually addressing corruption and problems in Iskcon is referring to the Spiritual Ideal from Srila Prabhupada's Lotus Heart. That Iskcon will never be in jeopardy. And you KNOW it. So what else could a person be referring to HMMMM?

But for all your bluster, I will return back to my original challenge to you. Before you decided to misconstrue The Sampradaya Acharya Thesis as being put forth by Rocana Dasa as a complete package of instructions for a new Iskcon on parallel with the Founder's vision to be offered in toto to "new men"

I almost summed it up there. But here goes. You said.

It (Sampradaya Acharya thesis) does not present the conclusions and instructions of our Srila Prabhupada. It is therefore for all intents and purposes useless.

And I stand by my challenge to you, prior to your diversionary manipulation and chicanery.

Prove that Rocana Dasa is presenting said thesis as a vehicle to present Srila Prabhupada's conclusions and instructions in toto. And if you can, do more than denounce it, but be constructive. Of course you can't, because it obviously was never meant to do so. This easily illustrated.

And I mean SIMPLE and EASY.

(For those unfortunate enough to be coming upon this at this point of this discussion/berating, The Sampradaya Acharya Thesis by Rocana Dasa firstly addresses this point as stated in the beginning of such thesis

1."the atmosphere within the Vaisnava Community has been surcharged with controversy surrounding the process of gaining genuine admission into the disciplic succession. This havoc has negatively impacted not only the individual aspiring bhakta followers of Srila Prabhupada, it has seriously impacted the preaching institution founded by the great Acarya."

Then as a result of this observation...

2. "For many years, I have tried to understand the essence of this seemingly insurmountable predicament. I have concluded that there is great need for a philosophical definition that clearly distinguishes between a Guru (siksa/diksa) and the Sampradaya Acarya."

So he is addressing the problem in a good faith attempt to help, and briefly defines his main thesis point...

3. "At the center of my thesis is the conclusion that Srila Prabhupada must be included in the exalted company of the two previous Sampradaya Acaryas, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. "

and his method.

4. "In this paper, I will share my faith that Srila Prabhupada is, in fact, a Sampradaya Acarya based on sound reasoning, logic, and research."

After his attempt to honor his goal, he concludes.

" For those readers who are moved by my arguments (either pro or con), and wish to discuss in greater detail, please contact me. I welcome the opportunity to explore these issues more deeply. It will require the work of others far more spiritually elevated than I to present to the world the unalloyed version of Srila Prabhupada’s purpose and pastimes. I sincerely pray that I can make a small contribution or play a part in establishing this truth."

So with this conclusion he does state that he believes that the leaders in Iskcon have lost their sight and ability to present to the world what Praghosa Dasa contends he himself can, to "present to the world the unalloyed version of Srila Prabhupada’s purpose and pastimes."

He welcomes the opportunity to explore this issue more deeply. He feels more advanced devotees assistance will be needed in getting back to that ideal.)

So again Praghosa's blanket denunciation (so called challenge):

"The Thesis Sampradaya Acharya does not present the conclusions and instructions of our Srila Prabhupada. It is therefore for all intents and purposes useless."

So I called him on this and said, well if you are the mack daddy of ultimate truth in this regard, and you waltz in here claiming the thesis is of utterly no value to get to that point, and that all the discussions we are having trying to solve our problems are not spiritual because according to you ANY discussion of any sort that is not presenting all the complete conclusions and instructions of Srila Prabhupada is not spiritual or appropriate. (very close paraphrase),,,,

Then let us have it. Put up or shut up.

At which point he asks me to do it!! He gives me a hypothetical situation where some new man approaches me after reading Bhagavad Gita and asks me how I would give him Siksa to his transcendental fulfillment!!!

Any third grader could see this psychological ploy to get out of having to put up or shut up!

Thus I find Praghosa Dasa is worthless to address any real issue or speak to anyones pointed concerns regarding real problems because you he doesn't hear a single thing. He just waits for the person to stop talking and gives them a preaching sermon repeating portions of the Siddhanta mixed with glorifying Srila Prabhupada which has no bearing on the person's actual concern. He takes Srila Prabhupada's books, and beats a wounded person over the head with them.

But, do we see him going from temple to temple wringing the necks of all these false gurus who are espousing self-aggrandizing interpretations of Srila Prabhupada's instructions. No of course not because he thinks "they have it 90% right" and its getting better all the time.

Nothing but hypocrisy, and using Srila Prabhupada's holy name and instructions as a vehicle for it.

Praghosa Dasa, you had best be careful about replying here because you are treading on holy ground and now have the full attention of my wrath.

And hopefully the rest of the good devotees present here.

Hare Krishna!

y.s.

Mark

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/21/2005 09:54 AM PST

Should I take this "latest" from you prabhu as meaning you agree with the points in the comments?

Your completely ignoring them seemed to indicate that. If you recall - my comments were merely a courteous reply to your previous statement. Now I reply and you come back "C'mon Praghosa - give a freaking rest...." You are a real Corker Mr Shiva, I'll give you that.

I did in fact say that his paper did not provide 2 things.

You and Mark said "Oh No. What you seek is there!"

So before analysis of any kind - we need to be in agreement on what it is not and does not profess. So my original comment on his thesis was simple and straightforward. Your reply was to the contrary and I offered you ample opportunity to show me how I was missing the "obvious".

Neither you or Mark ever considered it necessary to provide me that. It is not I that am running from the issue. You and Mark have refused to back up your claims. Bas. That is the sum of it.

I say a new man cannot find Srila Prabhupada's explanation of the simple clear message of our Parampara nor how to easily access and act upon it within the conclusions of Rocan Prabhu's thesis. I therefore said that for all intents and purposes it is useless and leads no where.

You and Mark disagreed. I said "show me". Clearly you will not - because you cannot. You now can only complain that I do not take the time to answer my own question by explaining what is not there and why it is not our Srila Prabhupada's teachings. I have to admit that you are acting in a very lazy manner. I have no intention of doing your work. You are convinced that Srila Prabhupada's teachings and instrucitions are there. I say you're dreaming.

Now you have no response for my last comments - which were a simple and respectful reply to your previous post and poor Shiva has grown so very tired of all this that all he can to is complain about how much energy he has to exert in order to wade through all this stuff.

Tough pal! You are under the influence of Maya. Your mission and the mission of Rocan is basically to dissuade devotees to follow your lead - to no where. That is pure rascaldom. Clever sure. Couched in the dressed up version of what people would call "ISKCON FRIENDLY" news and information - you seek to focus upon the misapplication of past and/or present folly - yet cannot answer even basic Krsna Conscious questions that would arise in the mind of a new man - with Srila Prabhupada's teachings and instructions.

Prove your mettle young man.

You say "NO Praghosa prabhu...its there. Srila Prabhupada's teachings and instructions are there!! Here they are........

Then state them - and support them from Rocan's thesis.

By the way - you attempt to dress me down for steering the discussion eleswhere? Just so you understand prabhu...the entire subject matter dealing with self interest popped up as a result of ANOTHER MAN asking a question. I believe his name was BB Das and then a ANOTHER MAN...I believe his name was Uttama....and then ANOTHER WOMAN...I beleive her name was Hari Kirtan Dasi...asked me a question and I tried to patiently answer them in a simple straigtforward manner.

Then...if you recall..yourself and Mark....took that as your cue to jump in and demand to know How in God's name I could say that the soul originally acts in its own self interest blah blah blah. You had your fill of that and now dress me down for basically respectfully adressing your comments and questions. You have to be the most spaced out pompous ass I have ever met. What to speak of the basics of Srila Prabhupada's teachings you don't even understand basic manners. Your interactions are basically just arrogant and rude.

Now you could change that but it will take some honesty on your part. Give it a shot.

Now one more time Mr. Corker. Let's leave all the "other stuff" behind and return to the real heart of the matter.

The Thesis Sampradaya Sun does not present the conclusions and instructions of our Srila Prabhupada. It is therefore for all intents and purposes useless.

If you say it does - say so and show me EXACTLY how it coincides PERFECTLY with Srila Prabhupada's presentation of our Parampara's teachings AND show me EXACTLY how a new man - could safely and easily follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions in all matters of importance as a DIRECT RESULT of his hearing and accepting the conlclusions of this thesis of Rocan Prabhu - the Sampradaya Sun.

Posted by shiva das @ 12/21/2005 04:43 AM PST

Praghosa, really, c'mon. Why don't you just write this stuff up and submit it as articles? You make this whole elaborate slightly off preachy presentation around a simple point of telling people that they shouldn't judge an entire religion by the actions of some of the adherents? I don't get the big deal, sorry. Only a fool or a totaly ignorant person would reject a religion if some of it's followers were less then saintly or even criminal. I ain't worried about it.

What started this thread? You telling everyone that debating about how the guru system would best be taught as being a waste of time and that Rocana Das and Danavir Goswami were just making noise and wasting time, as well as everyone else. Then you condemned Rocana Das's Sampradaya Acarya thesis as bogus. When people said you were being presumptuous etc, you then asked for a condensed version of Rocana Das's and Danavir Goswamis "debate" so you could prove your point. Why? I dunno. As the thread wore on your criticism of Rocana's thesis continued, but when asked for an analytical expose of Rocana's thesis you would just go off on these seemingly off topic preachy articles like the one below. So since you were free to denigrate the Sampradaya Acarya thesis without any reason why and refused to debate your points in a straightforward manner, I decided to start picking apart the weird things I would find in your mini classes. I was trying to gradually chip away at your egotistic outlook which prompts you to preach down at everyone instead of philosophical debate or dialoguing with everyone over the issues you raised. I figured that if you could see that your sermons were full of random mistakes that you would cease with the sermons from the mount and then come around and get back to the topic at hand, and then we could debate that which you gave a broad swipe of a critique at in the beginning of this thread and later.

So, are you through with the preaching to us about the purpose and importance of Krishna consciousness and how people here are somehow not getting how simple it is? Can you provide a reasonable analysis of why you feel the Sampradaya Acarya thesis is wrong? Maybe you are new to blog or forum participation. The idea is that each thread doesn't have to be a place where you have to try and get out the entire message of the sampradaya. There are topics raised and in each thread those topics are covered. While there can be various new ideas debated about or discussed in the thread, every post doesn't have to be some kind of sermon or class about the purpose and mission of the sampradaya.

I don't want you to take this criticism as being about something personal. I have no problem with you have a different point of view then mine or anyone elses and for you to express it. But it has become tiresome to wade through your poast trying to see if you have anything of relevance to say in the discussion at hand. So for the sake of brevity and for not seeming like you are here to preach Gita clasees to new bhaktas, maybe you could take this criticism as constructive. I have better things to do with my time then read posts which contribute nothing but off topic sermonizing. And I am sure you better things to do with your time then to write them.

Posted by Balarama das @ 12/20/2005 10:47 PM PST

We are all anxiously waiting for Rocan Prabhu's answers and realizations!

ys
Balarama das

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/20/2005 07:48 PM PST

Hello Shiva prabhu,
I am most pleased to discuss this with you prabhu. If I can be of any assitance in helping someone to hear and accept Srila Prabhupada's clear guidance then I am most grateful for the chance.

First off - please understand that this particular subject - of self interest vs service to others etc is a pivotal aspect of our devotional development. In fact Sri Arjuna in his discussions with Lord Krsna asked the Lord "In this condition, I am asking you WHAT IS BEST FOR ME" and also in the meeting between Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Sanatana Goswami - Srila Sanatan inquired "I do not know who I am nor WHY I am suffering the threefold miseries of material existence?" His perception that he was suffering of course implies his distaste for his condition and a personal desire to reverse his suffering and restore his so-called condition of enjoyment. Naturally we can take it that as in the case of Sri Arjuna - Sanatana's condition of apparent ignorance was all part of Lord Chaitanya's pastime and was enacted for the pleasure of the Lord and the future enlightenment of the world.

This "enlightenment" is essential if we are to revive our original Krsna Consciousness. It is not academically obtained. The Lord only reveals Himself - to Himself. Thus He only reveals Himself to His own appearance as The Guru; The spiritual master. Our position in spiritual life is akin to the position of the child in the womb. The child in the womb is 100% dependent upon the mother for his sustenance. In every single detail. One cannot supply any nutrition to the child - separate from the act of supplying nutrition to the mother. Our condtion is exactly like this. Sri Krsna reveals Himself to his cent per cent pure devotee and if we attach ourself through absolute submission and service to His representative - The Spiritual Master - then we will share in the revelations granted to the Lord's representative - the Spiritual Master who is nothing less than a member of the Lord's personal entourage; appearing with the Lord whenever He makes His appearance in this world. Lord Krsna has appeared in the womb of this Krsna Consciousness movement and He will remain with us - permanently - as the pure sound Vibration of Hare Krsna; Nama Avatar - and in the form of His pure representative The Spiritual Master..His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

So we need only consult Srila Prabhupada to understand any subject and this subject - which by the way - has sprung out of a different angle altogether - can be wonderfully analyzed with the aid of Srila Prabhupada's delightful and conclusive assistance.

When I first suggested this; the fact that the soul is always acting upon his natural inclination to serve his own interest - please remember that I made this point to emphasize that a newcomer should be helped to understand that despite whatever has occurred in the last 30 years - as a direct consequence of someone's abandoning their own individual pursuit of Lord Sri Krsna's Supreme Mercy - that new man should be assisted in any way necessary to see that it would not be in his best long term interest to allow anyone else's failures to diminish his own determination to seek and gain the satisfaction and Supreme Mercy of Lord Sri Krsna.

THAT was my very very simple point prabhu.

We all know that despite constant endeavor in devotional service one may fail, for many reasons. First of all, one may not be sufficiently serious about following the process.It is said that to pursue the transcendental path is more or less to declare war on the illusory energy. Consequently, whenever a person tries to escape the clutches of the illusory energy, she tries to defeat the practitioner by various allurements. A conditioned soul is already allured by the modes of material energy, and there is every chance of being allured again, even while performing devotional service. There is always the danger of deviation from the transcendental path. Just as Sri Arjuna was curious as to what might happen to someone who "fails" in his efforts and hurts himself or others - the new man needs to know that there is never any loss for them that fail and their failures are never to be taken as proving or affecting his own future failure in successfully gaining the favor of the Lord.

This was my reason for ever introducing the need to focus upon his own spiritual self interest. I am certain that like everyone - you also took to Krsna Consciousness - the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra - and the acceptance of what would otherwise be seen as unfavorable; the four regulative principles - because you were somehow convinced that to do so - would indeed be in YOUR long term interest to do so. Like Sri Arjuna prior to the Battle of Kuruksetra - we suffered ignorance and doubts and their subsequent effects and sought to alter that by hearing and eventually applying what we heard from Lord Krsna's "intimate" His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Sri Arjuna enjoyed the benefits of Lord Krsna's guidance and we also can do this by hearing from Srila Prabhupada and gaining faith in what we hear - by our personally applying his guidance and viewing first hand the most delightful results!!

THIS was the only reason I ever touched upon this point.

1. Since we are always inclined to act in our self interest first - it is imperative that a new man be allowed to see that EVEN if others failed in their KC - this would never imply that KC was not THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH and his chanting of Hare Krsna, under the direction of Srila Prabhupada a waste of his time, and proof that he should once again resume his foolish efforts to serve his interests and the interests of his extended objects of temporary affection by means of sense gratfication.

Is that completely clear prabhu? Crystal Clear? Please let me know if you fully understand my explanation here.

Now as for the rest of your comments I will offer you this in an effort to help you.

Sentiments like compassion and/or empathy - which generally result in attempts to "fix" or adjust the suffering conditions of those enduring the suffering position - are perfectly natural. The soul is wise that can see the true equality of all beings - by observing them in both their happiness and distress. The material world is compared to a blazing forest fire and we are all like the poor suffering animals who are running here and there trying to escape the raging inferno! To see the plight of others - recognize it to be non-different from my own - no matter who much disparity there may appear to be - and desire to end this condition - completely is completely natural. However- material compassion, lamentation and tears for the suffering of others are all signs of ignorance of the real self. Compassion for the eternal soul is self-realization. No one REALLY knows where compassion should be applied. Compassion for the dress of a drowning man is senseless. A man fallen in the ocean of nescience cannot be saved simply by rescuing his outward dress--the gross material body. One who does not know this and laments for the outward dress is a sudra. He is not brahmninical in his vision. We are guided by His Divine GRace Srila Prabhupada and consequently any allusion to the benefits of mundane compassion for the conditioned soul are unbecoming us. Srila Prabhupada , however, can dissipate the lamentation of any ignorant man, and for this purpose he translated the Bhagavad-gita As it Is and provided us his amazingly elucidating purports - all dictated by Lord Krsna Himself.

We cannot even pretend to imagine that we can ever alter or adjust anyone's suffering or enjoyment one tiny bit. If it appears that we are - it is only as an aspect of the Lord's arrangement - His theatre. Whatever we are to suffer or enjoy is already fixed up - stored up Srila Prabhupada's explains and we have no power to alter that. It is self deception at best and intentional deception at worst to pretend otherwise.

In the matter of self interest and then "extended self interest" we should of course know that how ever we act we are seeking a kind of taste or delight from that action. Every service has some attractive feature which drives the servitor progressively on and on. Every one of us within this world is perpetually engaged in some sort of service, and the impetus for this service is the pleasure we derive from it. Driven by affection for his wife and children, a family man works day and night. A philanthropist works in the same way for love of the greater family, and a nationalist for the cause of his country and countrymen. That force which drives the philanthropist, the householder and the nationalist is called rasa, and its taste is very sweet. Bhakti-rasa is a mellow different from the ordinary rasa enjoyed by mundane workers. Mundane workers labor very hard day and night in order to relish a certain kind of taste which is understood as sense gratification. The relish or taste of the mundane rasa does endure long, and therefore mundane workers are always apt to change their position of enjoyment. Basically we seek communion - relationship with Krsna but we settle for one of His parts and parcels - and suffer the consequence of becoming dependent upon a likewise DEPENDENT jiva soul. Unconditional and complete love is only possible between the Dependable and the Dependent. Two jivas are incapable of completely depending upon eachother; the time factor will inevitably interrupt whatever "happiness" is to be derived from this temporary scene. The basic principle of the living condition is that we have a general propensity to love someone. No one can live without loving someone else. This propensity is present in every living being. Even an animal has this loving propensity at least in a dormant stage, and it is certainly present in the human beings. The missing point, however, is where to repose our love so that everyone can become happy. At the present moment the human society teaches one to love his country or family or his personal self, but there is no information where to repose the loving propensity so that everyone can become happy. That missing point is Lord Kròsònòa, and Srila Prabhupada, through his wonderful books, teaches us how to stimulate our original love for Kròsònòa and how to be situated in that position where we can enjoy our blissful life. Offering access to Srila Prabhupada's perfect guidance in THIS matter - is the essence of compassion. Indeed it is the PERFECTION of compassion.

In the primary stage a child loves his parents, then his brothers and sisters, and as he daily grows up he begins to love his family, society, community, country, nation, or even the whole human society. But the loving propensity is not satisfied even by loving all human society; that loving propensity remains imperfectly fulfilled until we know who is the supreme beloved. Our love can be fully satisfied only when it is reposed in Kròsònòa. This theme is the sum and substance of all of Srila Prabhupada's purports and especially the Nectar of Devotion, which teaches us how to love Kròsònòa in the five different transcendental mellows.

Our loving propensity expands just as a vibration of light or air expands, but we do not know where it ends. His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, by means of the Nectar of Devotion and all his other books, teaches us the science of loving every one of the living entities PERFECTLY by the easy method of loving Kròsònòa. We have failed to create peace and harmony in human society, even by such great attempts as the United Nations, because we do not know the right method. The method is very simple, but one has to understand it with a cool head. The Srila Prabhupada teaches all men how to perform the simple and natural method of loving Kròsònòa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If we learn how to love Kròsònòa, then it is very easy to immediately and SIMULTANEOUSLY love every living being. It is like pouring water on the root of a tree or supplying food to one's stomach. The method of pouring water on the root of a tree or supplying foodstuffs to the stomach is universally scientific and practical, as every one of us has experienced. Everyone knows well that when we eat something, or in other words, when we put foodstuffs in the stomach, the energy created by such action is immediately distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, when we pour water on the root, the energy thus created is immediately distributed throughout the entirety of even the largest tree. It is not possible to water the tree part by part, nor is it possible to feed the different parts of the body separately. Through the Nectar of Devotion, Srila Prabhupada teaches anyone how to turn the one switch that will immediately brighten everything, everywhere. One who does not know THIS method is missing the point of life.

The root cause of our dissatisfaction is that our dormant loving propensity has not been fulfilled despite our great advancement in the materialistic way of life. Life after life we attempt to find a safe harbor for this loving propensity - which starts with our very own mind and senses and then travels outward as we strive to meet the needs and desires of those with whom we identify as family, society and friends. In process we committ one action after the other that binds us to various "reactions" and we cannot alter the subsequent "reactions" to our previous actions by ANY OTHER MEANS than by taking shelter of the Lord Himself - through the agency of His very own potency - as He appears in this world - the Spiritual Master.

So this opportunity is fully available today in the person, teachings and servants of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

One who is intelligent will recognize a golden opportunity when it presents itself and take advantage of it - the first time it presents itself.

I hope this has made my position a little more clear. From everything I have read from you - I am certain that you both understand me and agree with me in principle as well.

I do thank you for the chance to glorify our Srila Prabhupada and his wonderful gift of Krsna Consciousness a little bit.

Posted by Jahnava devi @ 12/18/2005 09:34 PM PST

Haribol, bloggers. The right margin problem manifesting here is caused by posters who use blockquote or 'ul' indent tags, but forget to close the tags. Please take a moment to double-check your postings when using those codes.

We've just returned from a road trip, and there wasn't time or easy facility to deal with the problem. I'll go in tomorrow and rebuild all the posts in this thread. Thanks for your patience.

Hare Krsna!

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/18/2005 01:22 PM PST

Correction:
"If they are they should be invested by the legal secular authorities " should read "If they are, they should be investigated by the legal secular authorities"

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/18/2005 01:18 PM PST

Regarding the Gurukula abuses. Are they still going on? If they are they should be invested by the legal secular authorities and all guilty parties should be punished to the full extent of the law. There is no excuse. So much of the dynamics of ISKCON authorities in the cover up and denial of abuse parallel the Catholic Church. Scapegoating, blaming the victim, red herrings such as calling those who decry the crimes as 'offenders' anti-Vaisnava (anti-Catholic) are all transparent ploys. By now they should have run out of such embarrassingly obvious strategies. Even the tying of child abuse with homosexuality has been exposed as a statistical fraud.
Unfortunately religions have some limited power of intimidating with postures of pious indignation, those who would expose their corruption.
The only problem is fewer and fewer people are impressed by these pseudo-sages and religious imposters.

Posted by Mark @ 12/18/2005 12:51 PM PST

Dear Miriam,

Hare Krishna!

I did not mean to imply I thought you were one of the grossly mistreated gurukuli alumni. I did pick up that you may have been on a subtle level mistreated in some way by A guru figure, like most of us, and was just checking in to see how your recovery was going. I tend to be overly protective, erring on the side of caution.

I appreciate your perception of the nuances of this struggle and how all forms of abuse are interwoven and stemming from the same source. To me that source is a lack of basic human integrity.

Such people still act so demoniac, even after being offered mercy by Srila Prabhupada IN PERSON, who they obviously consider dead and buried along with his "body".

For anyone to expect that such people will just change now, with a good talking to, without imprisonment and special focused rehabilitation is beyond me. They are seriously deceiving themselves and putting the innocent at risk.

Perhaps there are other ways that you could devise to offer a forum for those who would like to participate in creating solutions to this issue that aren't overseen by a committee of people who are trying to defend the perpetrators because it might hurt the reputation of the institution. Such Trash! Iskcon will only be respected more if its members take a stand and take care of our own problems in strict and conclusive manner.

And as for all this altruism is selfishness business, here comes the "pure devotee" again trying to divert people from exercising a natural pious tendency to assist the weak and downtrodden under the guise that it is not transcendental and thus unbecoming a "real" devotee.

As if some one who reads Srila Prabhupada's books would, when coming upon an old person who has fallen down a flight of stairs, pass that person by because now that they are practicing bhakti sadhana, extended selflessness is not to be included in a transcendental lifestyle.

If this guy keeps advocating this sort of trash, here is what will happen. After years of his soul wanting to genuinely help so many people with small things along the way having been repressed by this inhuman brainwashing, he will blow his top one day and really hurt somebody probably kicking them while they are down screaming "GET UP YOU INCOMPETENT HUMAN, (kick, kick) WHY ARE YOU HURT? (kick,kick) THIS PROCESS IS SIMPLE AND EASY!! kick!

I wish there was a way to stop this but he is like the Terminator Bunny, energized by the worst sort of ignorance, and I am afraid of the worst.

Someone stop him, please.

your servant,

Mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/18/2005 04:01 AM PST

Praghosa you wrote:

Altruism is merely extended selfishness. Anyone who imagines otherwise is only cheating himself.

This is the dictionary definition of altruism.

1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

For you to say that altruism is the opposite of what it means seems to me to be an unusual claim, and then to claim that anyone who disagrees with you is "cheating themselves" seems only to compound the strangeness.

Then you wrote:

The soul - can only think in terms of its survival and subsquent needs while in a captive state.

I disagree. Many parents love and care for their children for reasons other then survival and selfish reasons all of the time. Many people do all sorts of things that are not solely about survival and selfishness. Take the recent case of Tookie Williams. People were protesting and working to help stop his execution in california. They were not gaining anything to aid them in their survival, their activism was done to help a person. Or how about if you are on a bus and an elderly person needs a seat, if you stand and give your seat to them do you do it because you are scheming to gain something for it? I believe many people would give up their comfort for others out of compassion for others. They don't have to be self realized souls to have compassion or a good heart. Just because people are in the material world in a conditioned state of consciousness that doesn't mean that they are all bad. Self realized souls are the only people who are 100% purely unselfish and non exploitative. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is 100% without selflessness and without non exploitative desires. Different people are on different levels of consciousness. That's why some people have bad karma and some have good karma. Some people are mostly in the mode of goodness, some in the mode of passion, some in the mode of ignorance.

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/18/2005 03:57 AM PST

"Altruism is extended selfishness"
"Anger is extended meekness"
"Chastity is extended lust"

This form of words is a little silly.
To say altruism is selfishness is tantamount to saying there is no such thing. But history and experience tells us there is.

Prabhupada was altruistic. He was not selfish. Great saints dedicate there whole lives for the benefit of others, not their own.

Posted by bhaktin Miriam @ 12/17/2005 10:54 PM PST

Dear Mark prabhu,

Thank you for your concern, prabhu and compassionate tone.
I must clarify that I am not an gurukuli alumni. I re-read my post and realized that I did not make that clear. When I said other gurukuli alumni, I didn't mean to say that I am also one of them. I just meant other devotees, specially other gurukuli alumni. I must be careful to be a better writer.
When Dhira Govinda prabhu was the Child Protection director I was in touch with him about the child abuse issues in ISKCON. I provided him with much information (I happened to be the curious type, tend to question things that don't look righ-like when everybody in NY except me felt it was OK for Dhanurdhara to perform prohibited initiations, and did lots of research and spoke with many people about child abuse in ISKCON).
I was very sad when Dhira Govinda prabhu decided to resign from the Child Protection Office. He is still involve helping young people but his focus now is in helping them (and others of course)deal with the aftermath of abuse and disfuncional relationships and painful upbringing. He is extremely compassionate, insightful, reflective and has an incredible knack for knowing exactly where one is at emotionally. Good tools for a helper like himself.
I am still involve with child abuse issues, but now its different. It feels more lonely. I am greatful that the Sampradaya Sun editors have allowed Pandu prabhu and I write articles about this issue. They showed courage by not buckling down to the need to feel accepted by the rank and file ISKCON devotees. It is very hard for any website to publish articles that its audiences find distasteful. After all, if one looses his audiences who can he publish for? It is like going out of business! I hope they keep up with their courageous stance.
Pandu prabhu is like Dhira Govinda prabhu. He is a truth seekers and is not afraid to stand up for what he believes. Sadly, both have suffered the consequences for their stubborn honesty.
Pandu and I, independently have written articles about this issue.
Like Pandu prabhu, I have found out that the ISKCON rank and file don't want to talk or deal with this issue, they rather pretend it does not exist, this way they don't have to question their loyalties. Devotees are so adverse at bursting their precious bubles that they rather kill the messenger. That is why, Pandu and I have been shut out more or less.
This is a very complex issue with lots of politics, pretentions, fear, phony fronts, dangerous allegiances and lots of PR. Unfortunately, this blog is not the place to talk about this. So I will stop here.
Again, thank you for your concern.
I want to add one more thing, prabhu. I noticed that unlike the majority, your concern for child abuse victims goes beyond just a passive disgust. You don't seem to be afraid that child abuse issues will compete with other issues and concern that you hold dear nor you seem to be afraid that your allegiances to other groups might suffer because of it.
It could be that like myself you have come to realize that all these other maladies in ISKCON are all interweave because they all come from the same source.
Wow, it is so nice not to have to "philosophize" all the time. Speaking from the heart is much better.

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/17/2005 07:46 PM PST

Altruism is merely extended selfishness. Anyone who imagines otherwise is only cheating himself. The soul - can only think in terms of its survival and subsquent needs while in a captive state. Powerless to provide anything for our selves - we are fully dependent upon the Supreme for our entire existence. There are millions of eternal living beings and there is one chief eternal living being. The difference between them is that the Lord is Swarat and not dependent upon separated living beings for anything - but the separated living being is FULLY DEPENDENT upon the Chief Eternal Being and awaits His fullfiling their every desire.

Desire is the concomitant factor of the living being. The living being is only perceivable as he manifestsc desire. Purified by the mercy of the Lord's pure devotees - the desire of the living being becomes the fulfillment of Lord Krsna's desires.

By contact with Srila Prabhupada through his books - the aspirant becomes encouraged to seek his own perfection. This the natural outcome of Srila Prabhupada's conclusive preaching. Without the desire on his part to attain this perfection - he won't even begin the process - what to speak of succeed.

We are cautioned to resist the urge to speak - unless that speech conforms to the principles of austerity of given in BG and the Srila Prabhupada's personal example. That example is there and it is clear.

In one lecture Srila Prabhupada translated "Athato Brahma Jijnasa" as "Now in this human form of life - let me become a little pessimistic".

He also once equated "The optimist with an animal". He said that a goat while awaiting his own slaughter can become very optimistic over the abundant grass or she goats around him - all the while the farmer is sharpening his blade"

So pessimism leads to despair and death unless there is positive information given as to why we are forced to endure such an unpleasant situation as this material world. This information is delivered us by the Lord by means of His pure devotee.

The goal is to seek always the association of devotees who are themselves seeking the satsifaction of Krsna. If one doubts the value of anyone's association - then in CC Srila Prabhupada urges us to limit our association to the Spiritual Master and/or those we trust only.

The price for Krsna's mercy is INTENSE LAULYAM OR GREED! This is intense desire to gain the favor or Krsna! In BG 15 Chapter Srila Prabhupada explains that "One should be captivated by this information about the spiritual world and one should desire to go there"

Also we are encouraged to develope the singular desire to repay the Spiritual Master and Lord Krsna for the great boon of this Krsna Consciousness.

In BG 2:TEXT 7
TRANSLATION

Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly WHAT IS BEST FOR ME. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me.
PURPORT

By nature's own way the complete system of material activities is a source of perplexity for everyone. In every step there is perplexity, and therefore it behooves one to approach a bona fide spiritual master who can give one proper guidance for executing the purpose of life. All Vedic literatures advise us to approach a bona fide spiritual master to get free from the perplexities of life which happen without our desire. They are like a forest fire that somehow blazes without being set by anyone. Similarly, the world situation is such that perplexities of life automatically appear, without our wanting such confusion. No one wants fire, and yet it takes place, and we become perplexed. The Vedic wisdom therefore advises that in order to solve the perplexities of life and to understand the science of the solution, one must approach a spiritual master who is in the disciplic succession. A person with a bona fide spiritual master is supposed to know everything. One should not, therefore, remain in material perplexities but should approach a spiritual master. This is the purport of this verse.
Who is the man in material perplexities? It is he who does not understand the problems of life. In the Garga Upanisad the perplexed man is described as follows: yo va etad aksaram gargy aviditvasmal lokat praiti sa krpanah. "He is a miserly man who does not solve the problems of life as a human and who thus quits this world like the cats and dogs, without understanding the science of self-realization." This human form of life is a most valuable asset for the living entity who can utilize it for solving the problems of life; therefore, one who does not utilize this opportunity properly is a miser. On the other hand, there is the brahmana, or he who is intelligent enough to utilize this body to solve all the problems of life.
The krpanas, or miserly persons, waste their time in being overly affectionate for family, society, country, etc., in the material conception of life. One is often attached to family life, namely to wife, children and other members, on the basis of "skin disease." The krpana thinks that he is able to protect his family members from death; or the krpana thinks that his family or society can save him from the verge of death. Such family attachment can be found even in the lower animals who take care of children also. Being intelligent, Arjuna could understand that his affection for family members and his wish to protect them from death were the causes of his perplexities. Although he could understand that his duty to fight was awaiting him, still, on account of miserly weakness, he could not discharge the duties. He is therefore asking Lord Krsna, the supreme spiritual master, to make a definite solution. He offers himself to Krsna as a disciple. He wants to stop friendly talks. Talks between the master and the disciple are serious, and now Arjuna wants to talk very seriously before the recognized spiritual master. Krsna is therefore the original spiritual master of the science of Bhagavad-gita, and Arjuna is the first disciple for understanding the Gita. How Arjuna understands the Bhagavad-gita is stated in the Gita itself. And yet foolish mundane scholars explain that one need not submit to Krsna as a person, but to "the unborn within Krsna." There is no difference between Krsna's within and without. And one who has no sense of this understanding is the greatest fool in trying to understand Bhagavad-gita.

The issue is how to keep a new man from allowing information of the failings of others - or the effects these "failings" had or are having on others.

We are all adults here and know the need for this. This does not mean delibarately obfuscating facts etc. It means providing them the tools to prevent any of the sordid waste products of history to interfere with a man's pursuing his own self realization and his realization of his eternal loving relationship with Lord Krsna and His devotees. That should not be too hard for anyone to grasp.

Hare Krsna

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/16/2005 07:29 PM PST

Shiva you evade my actual point with this nonsense. What can be done. Perhaps we can meet someday and actual engage in something more tangible. This does not reflect anything remotely constructive yet I have suspician that there may be one or two who have been able to understand my answer to BB - sans your interpretation. It is quite simple. You can wake a sleeping man - but not a man who is pretending to sleep.

Thanks for the experience.

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/16/2005 07:28 PM PST

Shiva you evade my actual point with this nonsense. What can be done. Perhaps we can meet someday and actual engage in something more tangible. This does not reflect anything remotely constructive yet I have suspician that there may be one or two who have been able to understand my answer to BB - sans your interpretation. It is quite simple.

Thanks for the experience.

Posted by Mark @ 12/16/2005 07:08 PM PST

Dear Miriam,

After a person has been down and hurt, sarcasm is quite natural. If that is as cruel as it gets, its not so bad.

Compare that to the extreme cruelty perpetrated by those abusers who are spoken of sarcastically, and it almost seems justified.

The fact that at one point you were "trying" to be humble and polite, tells me your genuine feelings about the matter, if expressed, would have come out anything but.

However, sensitive people like you don't ever want to be cruel even a little. That is why it is so important for folks to get the hell out of abusive relationships, so a person can heal their wounds and be around people who will reciprocate their kindness instead of sucking it dry with no return.

Speaking for my own situation at one point, I didn't really trust anyone around me 100%. So I isolated myself and let myself be very sad or angry or whatever came up. Gradually, when I would be around people, they hadn't changed much, still exhibiting the same imbalanced and sometimes cruel behavior towards folks, myself included, but I was able to handle it, first by defending myself in sarcastic, blunt, or clever ways, and then as time went on, I would just stand there and well, just let them be stupid, smile, and walk away.

Of course it is a little easier for me, because I can walk away. I am not co-dependent on anyone, could survive in the wilderness if I had to, and can fight like a tiger if called upon.

For people who are trapped in a situation it can be much more difficult, and they need more temporary support of those who are healed already.

Have you been able to keep in contact with Dhira Govinda Prabhu?

Is your situation stable? (I know the material world never is but relatively speaking, health, wealth, safety)

y.s.

Mark

baladas247@netzero.net

Posted by bhaktin Miriam @ 12/16/2005 05:14 PM PST

Dear Mark,

My remarks about the swami were off the cuff. I guess it came off as sarcastic. I didn't mean to be cruel or anything like that.
I was talking basically from personal experiences.
Over the years, I have written to various gurus and leaders seeking answers. I tried very hard to be polite and humble about it. But, their usual response has always been silence.
It feels so painful when they ignored me like that. When they feel that they are been challange, they just write me off as an offender.
Many of my questions I had for them were about things that really bother me so much. I needed answers very badly, but I found out that they are not willing to seriously discuss many things, at least not with me.
Nevertheless, I know that I am not the only one who has faced their apathy. I think it is a rather common occurance.
I also had the same problem with the new ISKCON Child Protection Director. If one can't go to the leaders and authority figures to discuss serious things,or get some answers, who can you go to?
I must say though, the exception has been Dhira Govinda prabhu.He has always answered my questions and has been truthful about everything. The Child Protection Office has certainly lost a very good man. Other gurukuli alumni have said the same thing.

Posted by Mark @ 12/16/2005 04:15 PM PST

Hari Bol!

That article by Kundali Das is profound and succinct. I am going to print it out, and share it with anyone who has been bitten by the New Age Serpent of "More Heart, Less Mind".

I can't tell you all how often I hear that twisted philosophy proffered in circles near me.

It seems to be a reaction to the fact that so many people have been abused into bypassing their emotional feelings altogether so that their thought forms are truly twisted, and when that realization begins to dawn, people just want their dirty minds to shut the hell up, so they can have some peace.

I was taught a technique back in the day, which enabled severely abused and disassociated people to regain their ability to feel their emotions.

It is based on the true fact that positive, life affirming, benevolent, and thus pious thought forms impress our astral or emotional body in a way that allows the emotional energy to flow through us and touch others.

Perverted, destructive, malevolent, and thus impious thought forms impress our emotional body in a way that closes off or restricts the flow of emotional energy. Thus the energy builds up and eventually forces its way out in an explosion of some degree, damaging or destroying its target.

The emotional body is a magnetic essence. Pure desire. It attracts. The mental body is an electric essence. The mind instructs the desire body on how to achieve its desire. As long as someone is living and breathing, their emotional body will be attracting some thought form or another.

It is true that originally, the cosmic egg was filled with those with demonic thoughts, and demi-urgic or pious divine thoughts. All due to karma, based on the arrangement for the Lord's Lila.

The point is that if there exists the possibility of redemption all of us ignorant and less than piously minded humans in Kali Yuga to at least become pious minded and mature members of society, there must be a scientific way of understanding the process of that healing.

A person who has the karma of impious thought forms tends to be unable to share and cooperate with others in general. Their core thoughts about life, and what other people mean to them, restrict them from sharing and cooperating with the pious.

This leads to the repression of their emotional energies, which will manifest in one of 2 general ways.

Either self-destruction, because they have been taught that their being a misfit is no-ones fault but their own, or destruction of others, because their thought pattern is to blame others.

The therapy is to provide a setting for a wounded person to believe they are safe enough to FEEL whatever they are feeling in relation to their thoughts without worrying they might lash out at anyone else or hurt themselves as they are used to. It is tricky but can be done.

What happens is their emotional energy starts moving because they have decided to incorporate a pious thought form of self-acceptance. They accept the bad feelings they have and let them move in a primal way. If they feel safe enough, that level of their emotional body will move so thouroughly, it will blow out the thought form that created the restrictive impression in the first place.

This is the same thing that any moderately healthy person experiences when they realize they have made a mistake, and are truly sorry. The repentance is always accompanied by first acknowleging the improper behavior. This never FEELS good at first, you will notice. But after the admission, the release is quite relieving.

In addition, after that particular level of emotional energy is free to flow, it magnetically attracts the proper philosophical understanding which is associated with positive flow of that particular life energy. The person will either hear it spoken, or read it, or in some cases receive it internally as an intuitive revelation.

So this ties in to the tyrant who advises that a person artificially renounces their evil material tendencies. This denial of natural emotionally satisfying activity is not spiritual at all.

Most Tyrants are SO repressed themselves that they cannot stand to be in the presence of any genuinely positive moving emotion, and thus they attract the weakest, most fanatically repressed groupies.

For some, once they are pulled from the matrix, the layers of emotional expression they need to reclaim are so many, that it can take years to release enough faulty thought forms, that they might be able to begin to replace them with the goods.

I can still remember contemplating the four regs and thinking, boy I'd love to but how? As I released old habits as per the above technique, I would see that I naturally tended to act without taking unnecessary risks, was attracted to vegetarian food, became indifferent to intoxicants due to intoxication with serving creatively, and began to envision that fulfilling sex would only occur with a like minded woman who was looking to settle down and have a family. Without someone forcing me to try to do these things before it was my own genuine desire.

Hare Krishna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/16/2005 02:53 PM PST

Bhakta Ray thanks for that link to Kundali Das's article, I agree with his conclusions. Also you are correct in your writing that "psychological egoism" is rejected as a truism. It's a logical fallacy known as a hasty generalization as I have pointed out in my citing the behavior of addicts of various types, also there are other types of behavior that are not done in self interest e.g altruistic behavior, for instance jumping in front of your loved one if someone is shooting a gun at them while knowing that you may be killed. See

http://philosophy.lander.edu/ethics/egoism.html

Posted by shiva das @ 12/16/2005 02:19 PM PST

Praghosa you wrote:

I didn't bother to read it all - since merely writing it - and disagreeing with my statements and presenting your own conclusions was a demonstration of my point...and I honestly didn't see it as IN my interest to read the entire presentation.

Doesn't that statement stand in contradiction to the next paragraph you wrote:

By the way prabhu... as usual you are most assuredly not getting my point to Uttama and BB prabhus.

This has been noticed and by me already and mentioned to you quite a few times. Your lack of scrutiny in what people write and then your condemnation of it. I have no porblme as i have pointed out if you disagree with people based on what they say and present you rreasons for youre disagreement, but you show no interest in what people have to say. Your only interest is in preaching to us not in a philosophical dialectic. And now your "preaching" turns into a pseudo psychological analysis of what motivates people if they disagree with you, even though you admit you don't even read why they disagree with you. Well thanks Dr. Sigmund Praghosa for getting at the root of what motivates people if they disagree with your divine haughtiness.

As you so succinctly put it "What can be done?"

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/16/2005 12:56 PM PST

"In the Eleventh Canto, Twentieth Chapter, verse 31, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krishna says, "My dear Uddhava, for persons who are seriously engaged in My service, the cultivation of philosophical speculation and artificial renunciation are not very favorable. When a person becomes My devotee he automatically attains the fruits of the renunciation of material enjoyment, and he gets sufficient knowledge to understand the Absolute Truth." That is the test of advancement in devotional service. A devotee cannot be in darkness, because the Lord shows him special favor and enlightens him from within."
http://vedabase.net/nod/14/en1

Bhavagad Gita Chapter 3. Karma-yoga
TEXT 33

sadrsam cestate svasyah
prakrter jnanavan api
prakrtim yanti bhutani
nigrahah kim karisyati

SYNONYMS

sadrsam--accordingly; cestate--tries; svasyah--in one's own nature; prakrteh--modes; jnana-van--learned; api--although; prakrtim--nature; yanti--undergo; bhutani--all living entities; nigrahah--suppression; kim--what; karisyati--can do.
TRANSLATION

Even a man of knowledge acts according to his own nature, for everyone follows his nature. What can repression accomplish?
PURPORT

Unless one is situated on the transcendental platform of Krsna consciousness, he cannot get free from the influence of the modes of material nature, as it is confirmed by the Lord in the Seventh Chapter (7.14). Therefore, even for the most highly educated person on the mundane plane, it is impossible to get out of the entanglement of maya simply by theoretical knowledge, or by separating the soul from the body. There are many so-called spiritualists who outwardly pose to be advanced in the science, but inwardly or privately are completely under the particular modes of nature which they are unable to surpass. Academically, one may be very learned, but because of his long association with material nature, he is in bondage. Krsna consciousness helps one to get out of the material entanglement, even though one may be engaged in his prescribed duties. Therefore, without being fully in Krsna consciousness, no one should suddenly give up his prescribed duties and become a so-called yogi or transcendentalist artificially. It is better to be situated in one's position and try to attain Krsna consciousness under superior training. Thus one may be freed from the clutches of maya. "

From the above quotations it should be obvious that artificial renunciation is useless and possibily dangerous. Telling somebody that they shouldn't chant offensively is like telling a paralyzed man in a burning building that he needs to rush out.

If we could just begin chanting inoffensively we all could become pure devotees in seconds. That is why Krsna Consciouness is called a process. Because it takes time. It is not an artificial imposition on the mind.

The belief that we always act in our own self-interest is a philosophy known as psychological egoism and it is seriously flawed.

I think there has been enough quoted on the topic of sentimentality for instance

"True religion is inseparable from science. Thus faith and the analytical mind go side by side. We say, therefore, religion (faith) without science (analytical thinking) is mere sentimentality. Srila Prabhupada taught us this. So where is the question of rejecting "intellectual stuff"—i.e. the philosophy—to be into "the heart" or, as we saw earlier, to be a "Prabhupada man"? Where is the question of having "more faith in Prabhupada than in sastra? Where is the question of guru, guru, and guru, as our sole pramana in ascertaining heresy? This is all sentimental fanaticism. Soft-headed surrealism. This is all bluffing. Cheating."
http://www.saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Vaishnava%20Theory%20And%20Practice/Faith%20the%20Analytical%20Mind%20and%20the%20Uttama%20Adhikar/09mission3.htm

Posted by Mark @ 12/16/2005 11:01 AM PST

Dear Devotees,

Please accept my obeisances.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

There is something I am thinking and the feeling it invokes is moving me willingly to write to you now. It is in my self-interest to do so at this point, and I hope that it serves the self interest of at least one person reading this, then it will be more satisfying in retrospect.

Praghosa Dasa seemed to make a very good point in answering a recent question asked directly to him by BB Das.

Praghosa Dasa has conveniently summed up the essence of both the question and his answer in his most recent post to Shiva Das. Here is the quote.

"His question essentially- "when do we soil their enthusiasm with accounts of those who lost their ability to see their long term interest in Krsna Consciousness and effectively damaged either their own faith or the enthusiasm of others who were not sufficiently or correctly committed to their pracitice of devotional service."

I gave him my answer. You can read it over again if you like. But its essence is - help everyone to learn exactly how Srila Prabhupada has guided us to pursue our own Krsna Consciousness correctly - in such a way that the weakening of someone elses faith or enthusiasm will not only NOT undermime our own - but correctly serve as a pracitical guide as to what to avoid in our own efforts to attract Lord Krsna's Mercy!!

I submit that a person who states that their advice is to, quote:

"help everyone to learn exactly how Srila Prabhupada has guided us to pursue our own Krsna Consciousness correctly"

and has stated in a previous post that,

"I can of course offer what Srila Prabhupada did in fact provide."

Is essentially offering that they have the current understanding and capability to PURELY represent Srila Prabhupada's instructions to others. And this in no uncertain terms.

Thus it is up to each of us to decide if this very person does so himself. I did some quick research and found it easy to come to a conclusion which I will share so noone be further misguided.

He quotes on 12/13/2005 10:17 AM

" As I point out in my previous comments, unless what we say is 100% what Srila Prabhupada our accepted yardstick - our AUTHORITY - does in fact say... there is no value to any discussion."

On 12/02/2005 07:54 AM he says regarding Iskcon, quote:

"In order for them to survive as the mission Srila Prabhupada left us - with a functioning GBC body to protect the mission - they will need to align the office of diksa guru 100% in line with Srila Prabhupada's guidance"

So if there was a forum, where people were discussing how this might be accomplished.

And given that Srila Prabhupada never set up an "office" of Diksa Guru, because such a combination is oxymoronic, mutually incompatible for eternity.

And since one can easily deduce that any people who have set up an OFFICE of Diksa Guru, and who have claimed that position of power can only have done so in order to have some form of unnatural CONTROL over others.

And since one may safely deduce that such people, if in CONTROL over the properties, both intellectual and physical, of an entire institution, will not just give it up from the kindness of their hearts.

Therefore, in this forum or blogspace, people are putting forth proposals to deal with this unnatural situation, and plainly stating a wish to stay in the spirit of Iskcon, while removing themselves temporarily from the jurisdiction of the unnaturally controlled structures of the so-called Iskcon corporate body.

I would think such a perfect representative of Srila Prabhupada, and thus the Lord, would not have be condemning the discussions here as having no value. That person would have no problem offering easy to understand practical solutions to address these sincere concerns.

That person would not assert that essays which have tons of excellent points and truthful statements, though perhaps missing in a few areas, Quote:

"it essentially leads no where"

If this was not enough, I am wondering if he finds that it was valuable to this discussion when HE HIMSELF said things that Srila Prabhupada never said.

Remember his first quote:

12/13/2005 10:17 AM

" As I point out in my previous comments, unless what we say is 100% what Srila Prabhupada our accepted yardstick - our AUTHORITY - does in fact say... there is no value to any discussion."

It was said by one poet Jacques Benigne Bossuel:

"The heart has reasons that reason does not understand."
Jacques Benigne Bossuel

This is also a very poignant comment about the impetus of love:

"Love is not blind -- it simply enables one to see things others fail to see."

How about this as well from the poet Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye."

I include these quotes only to highlight the influence of the compelling force of "The Heart" and for no other reason.

I don't remember Srila Prabhupada ever quoting mundane poetry in order to highlight the influence of the so called "Heart".

There is much more. But I stop here.

I am not perfect. But I will certainly hold anyones feet to the fire who claims to be.

I rest my case. Hare Krishna.

your servant,

Mark

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/16/2005 09:16 AM PST

Shiva I am very sorry that you do not have the ability to see what I am saying. Your very act of writing me this load of dissent with my essential point is done in YOUR interest. You need or want - to meet your need to express what YOU see or FEEL about what I am saying. You feel that leaving unsaid what you feel needs to be said - simply must be said and you thus allocate perhaps an hour or more of your time to ACTUALLY SAY what you are so certain needs to be said.

This sense of needing or wanting to say what what you feel needs be said - is the perfect example of what I am saying.

You just cannot let it go. Not telling me where I am OBVIOUSLY off - just cannot co-exist in your head with merely ignoring me.

Simple.

When you were finished acting in a manner that relieved you of the discomfort you experienced attempting to ignore my comments(your interest or in the interest of the innocent victims of Praghosa's statements) telling me that people do not always act in their self interest, you read over your comments, felt satisfied that they were what YOU "WANTED" to say...and pushed the POST button!! Presto! "Now I am satisfied with my self, my actions and my conclusions!"

I didn't bother to read it all - since merely writing it - and disagreeing with my statements and presenting your own conclusions was a demonstration of my point...and I honestly didn't see it as IN my interest to read the entire presentation.

By the way prabhu... as usual you are most assuredly not getting my point to Uttama and BB prabhus.

Simple point: Everyone takes to Krsna Consciousness because they see it in their long term "self" interest to do so. His question essentially- "when do we soil their enthusiasm with accounts of those who lost their ability to see their long term interest in Krsna Consciousness and effectively damaged either their own faith or the enthusiasm of others who were not sufficiently or correctly committed to their pracitice of devotional service."

I gave him my answer. You can read it over again if you like. But its essence is - help everyone to learn exactly how Srila Prabhupada has guided us to pursue our own Krsna Consciousness correctly - in such a way that the weakening of someone elses faith or enthusiasm will not only NOT undermime our own - but correctly serve as a pracitical guide as to what to avoid in our own efforts to attract Lord Krsna's Mercy!!

That is all. This was and will remain my simple point.

If you cannot grasp this I cannot help you other than to encourage you to consider it all a little more carefully and renounce your knee jerk reaction to argue.

Thank you prabhu.

Posted by Mark @ 12/16/2005 08:21 AM PST

Dear Devotees,

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I have noticed that when a human being has a sentimental attachment to obtaining the fruits of some Material activity, this can be a healthy emotional endeavor, or a destructive emotional endeavor.

Srila Prabhupada exhorted all those who had emotionally based material desires to dovetail them in service to the Lord through his program. The Varnashrama system, when properly applied to ones life, allows one to continue to engage in their Materially sentimental emotional endeavors from a Pious approach, regulated by rules of conduct which promote harmony with others in society and all the "lower" creatures and can be considered healthy and balanced from a material standpoint.

Thus over time, a person can have their material desires met to their full satisfaction, and simultaneously and gradually REALIZE FOR THEMSELVES that it is ultimately empty IN CONTRAST TO the transcendental experiences they have during small periods every day, which gradually grow in strength throughout ones LIFESPAN.

Unfortunately, what we find are people approaching other people repeating all of the strict assessments about material sentimental activity found in the scriptures, such as that "attraction to women is poison" and "the senses are a network of paths to death", and "material endeavors are incompatible with the spiritual nature of the soul".

They do this, but then do not have a single clue about how to take the sentimental attachments a person does have, and engage them at that level in piety. Instead they treat everyone the same way. By enforcing rules and regulations prohibiting any material endeavor whatsoever and calling it the path of purification and pure devotional service. Then when a that person is dried up with no emotional contact with the world and robotically forcing their self to chant a mantra, and sleep on a cold floor, and tie their testicals in a knot, and not look at women, they break down, and the so called Guru chastises them for lack of sincerety and desire to be a devotee. This is an unhealthy, imbalanced state of material emotional engagement. Duh.

When you meet someone doing that to people, please at least Puke on that perpetrator. And if you have it in your wherewithal, give the victim basic human shelter, or send them somewhere that they won't be treated like a rat. If you don't know of a group of people who are Gaudiya Vaisnava influenced who offer that service, there are plenty of good Christians who do.

It may have been their "karma" to get themselves in that victim situation, but your mercy can change that bad karma in an instant. And don't forget to puke on the perpetrator, or worse.

Unless you are a pure devotee, then you will try to deliver both parties and don't need to listen to my suggestion.

Hare Krisna

y.s.

Mark

Posted by shiva das @ 12/16/2005 01:33 AM PST

That last line of my post:

"The question will always present itself: is their actions or intentions something I would wish to replicate? Is their action or idea something I could share or embrace or follow?"

That was supposed to have quotation marks around it, it is a quote from Praghosa and I thought it a fine (ironic) way to end what I had written.

Posted by shiva das @ 12/16/2005 01:22 AM PST

Praghosa you wrote:

But no living entity ever ceases to act in their own interest - ever.

That's a completely mistaken idea. People act without their self interest in their actions all of the time. We especially see this relationship amongst battered wives and girlfriends. They have low self esteem or they have co-dependency issues and even though their best interest is not served by staying with their abusive husbands and boyfriends, they stay anyway, often leading to death. Why do they do it? Usually the psychiatrists say that they have a mental disease of one type or another or a chemical imbalance in their brains which keeps them from acting in their self interest. We also see people who are alcoholics, obese, drug addicted, etc, who also do not act in their self interest. Again the shrinks will tell us that they have a mental disease or a chemical imbalance in their brains. We can go deeper and ask why are there conditioned souls undergoing samsara life after life? It's because they are not acting in their self interest.

In fact all of the above people are forced to act based on the desire of the Lord in order to experience karma which has a purifying effect which leads to eventually the jiva soul acting in his own self interest.

Bhagavad Gita 14.19

Purport

By the instruction of a bona fide spiritual master, a living entity can know of his spiritual position, his material body, his senses, how he is entrapped, and how he is under the spell of the material modes of nature. He is helpless, being in the grip of these modes, but when he can see his real position, then he can attain to the transcendental platform, having the scope for spiritual life. Actually, the living entity is not the performer of different activities. He is forced to act because he is situated in a particular type of body, conducted by some particular mode of material nature. Unless one has the help of spiritual authority, he cannot understand in what position he is actually situated.

Bhagavad Gita 18.61

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

PURPORT

Arjuna was not the supreme knower, and his decision to fight or not to fight was confined to his limited discretion. Lord Krsna instructed that the individual is not all in all. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, or He Himself, Krsna, the localized Supersoul, sits in the heart directing the living being. After changing bodies, the living entity forgets his past deeds, but the Supersoul, as the knower of the past, present and future, remains the witness of all his activities. Therefore all the activities of living entities are directed by this Supersoul. The living entity gets what he deserves and is carried by the material body which is created in the material energy under the direction of the Supersoul. As soon as a living entity is placed in a particular type of body, he has to work under the spell of that bodily situation. A person seated in a high-speed motorcar goes faster than one seated in a slower car, though the living entities, the drivers, may be the same. Similarly, by the order of the Supreme Soul, material nature fashions a particular type of body to a particular type of living entity to work according to his past desires. The living entity is not independent. One should not think himself independent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The individual is always under His control.

Then you said:

We do not lift a finger - that we are not thinking to improve an existing condition. All action is preceded by the perception, real or imagined that our next action will yield an improvement of our present circumstances - no matter how slight

As already stated people regularly feel compelled to do things they don't want to do and that they know will harm them. So your above thesis is incorrect. Obese people will cry and tell you that they know they shouldn't sit down and eat a whole cake and 5 boxes of cookies 3 times a day, they cry and tell us that they don't want to do it but that they cannot stop. The same goes for addicts of all types. They regularly complain that they wish they could stop engaging in self destructive behavior but they can't control their urges. Bulimics and obese people, alcoholics and drug addicts, all know that they are killing themselves but feel they cannot stop, they feel compelled, and they are, it's their karma under the direction of the Supersoul.

Then you wrote:

If someone cannot understand my inserting the quotes dealing with the heart, what can be done. I included them only to emphasize how our desire to meet our needs - whatever they may be - initates in the heart and must be guided by "guided" intellgence - Krsna's Pure devotee - in order achieve the goal of "SELF realization".

You're not making sense here. Those quotes about "the heart" were as follows:

It was said by one poet Jacques Benigne Bossuel:

"The heart has reasons that reason does not understand."

Jacques Benigne Bossuel

For those of us who don't understand what you meant by including this quote (what can be done?) maybe you can explain to us how you feel this quote is relevant to spiritual life? In fact it seems to go against the very message of Vedanta which puts reason and a rational examination of our position in this temporary body in a world controlled by God as the only important thing for us to do. That quote seems to be about emotions over the intellect in a romantic context, I don't see how it applies to people on the path of Bhakti. The mesage of the Bhagavata is that the heart of the conditioned soul is contaminated by the desire to exploit and be selfish, and it is through karma that one develops reason enough to see that the heart can be a liar and that following the heart over the intellect leads us to self deception. When a person's karma has been exhausted and a person reaches exhaustion with the surrender to the contaminated heart, at that time Krishna arranges for that person to come into contact with Himself.

This is also a very poignant comment about the impetus of love:

"Love is not blind -- it simply enables one to see things others fail to see."

That is another quote written in a romantic context and is in oppostion to the teachings of the Bhagavata. The sastra teaches us that real love is not seen in the conditioned soul, it is lust alone which is misinterpreted as love. Love of God, prema, is the stage one attains after he has come to the level of full knowledge and realization. It is love gained through knowledge. I don't mean the love found in the spiritual world because love there is of a different nature then love in the material world developed by Bhakti. In the spiritual world the devotees don't love Krishna because they are self realized and full of knowledge about the nature of the absolute truth, they love Krishna because of his relationship with them.

How about this as well from the poet Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye."

That is another quote which seems to be in reference to romantic love. And again it goes against the teachings of the Bhagavata. Nowhere will you find such a statement from the acaryas or the sastra. "What is essential" is understood through cultivation of spiritual knowledge. It is through knowledge that ignorance is eradicated and then one can realize the true position of the soul and everything else. At that stage love develops naturally due to appreciation of the mercy of the Lord. It is not that the "heart" can see what is "invisible to the eye". That is mundane romantic sentimentalism. The Bhagavata teaches that the it is through spiritual knowledge that one can see what is invisible to the eye as well as the heart.

Even those whom you might suggest have no heart - are indeed acting to secure their own interest - at every single moment.

What is the "heart"? People here have used that word as if it has some singular meaning pertaining to a person's attitude towards sentimental moods and attitudes which in some ways affects their ability to understand God in a helpful way. Such ideas are based on ignorance. Sentimentalism and sahajiyaism are and have been rampant in devotional religions for a long while. It is common in all devotional religions. People commonly think that because they feel something strongly to be true in an intuitive way, and also because they believe that having these fellings are a sign of an advanced spiritual state, they then mistake that to mean they are advanced in understanding of God, that therefore their understanding is somehow "from the heart" and therefore superior to an intellectual approach and understanding. It's ego and ignorance which are the basis for those ideas.

It's kinda like a person who believes he is a faith healer because he just feels he has the connection with God. He "knows" intuitively that he is right. These people are condemned by the acaryas as sentimentalists and cheap devotees. They feel that by dint of their "heart" that they understand intuitively what others cannot, and that those who present ideas that oppose their own must be therefore be wrong, even if qualified by sastra. This "heart over the head" philosophy is only for those who have gone past the conditioned state of existence, it is for people who are in their eternal bhava relating directly to the Lord. For anyone else the "the heart" is full of "dirty things" and to follow your dirty heart is a recipe for the continuance of the illusory existence of the conditioned soul under the 3 modes of material existence.

The question will always present itself: is their actions or intentions something I would wish to replicate? Is their action or idea something I could share or embrace or follow?

Posted by Robot Disciple @ 12/15/2005 09:58 PM PST

All Glories to my Guru.

I am his dearest devotee.

He often wonders out loud

What he'd do without me.

I serve my Guru Maharaj

with tender loving care

despite the fact that he treats me

as If I'm not even there.

But he says thats just my karma

and he's a pure devotee

and if I want to eat tonight

I guess I'll just agree.

crying.

Posted by Robot Guru @ 12/15/2005 09:48 PM PST

All glories to my self.

I am your Guru.

Though I pretend you are mine.

Varnashrama Dharma?

Who has the time?

We are all Vaisnavas

transcendental and sublime

ksyatria vaisya sudra

those labels hurt my mind!

How can I preach to you
every day and all the time?

If I need to keep a ledger book
and wipe my own behind?

your humblest meekest servant,

the Robot Guru

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 07:02 PM PST

Uttama prabhu,
Thank you for your comments.

As I said in my comments "I include these quotes only to highlight the influence of the compelling force of "The Heart" and for no other reason."

Your comment that some devotee has only a brain and no heart is not accurate, though perhaps some hearts are steel framed or resistant to the quality of empathy that develops in the heart of the aspiring devotee. But no living entity ever ceases to act in their own interest - ever. However this sense of self interest can take on different forms and will naturally include others as our circle of connections in this world increases or decreases. This is just elementary stuff. Easy to see.

This world is nothing more than a huge market. Even the various species of life were essentially "purchased" by each living being residing in their particular body - with the results of their actions and their concomitant mental conditions. This is all based upon desire. Srila Prabhupada states in the Bhagavad Gita that desire is the concomitant factor or feature of the living being. We do not lift a finger - that we are not thinking to improve an existing condition. All action is preceded by the perception, real or imagined that our next action will yield an improvement of our present circumstances - no matter how slight. Even an insignificant fidget in a chair - is in reality an effort to restore our condition of comfort that was momentarily surrendered to discomfort.

Think of the various "vegas" or pushings we endure that are described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in the Nectar of Instruction. The attempt to appease these various "pushings" consumes the every single second of the day of a normal living entity in this material world. Krsna consciousness is the redirection of this attempt at improving our present situation from what it is - TO WHAT IT COULD BE. This endeavor was previously spent or centered upon sense gratification - subtle and gross. Once we are awakened to the existence of Lord Krsan and His actual position as the source of and "master" of our senses - then under the direction of His pure devotee we can revive our original Krsna Consciousness and act in our TRUE SELF INTEREST which is only possible when we take exclusive delight in pleasing the senses of Lord Krsna.

Teaching our children and grandchildren this science is our duty Mother Hari Kirtan; at least we are meant to give it our best shot! I hope that answers your question.

If someone cannot understand my inserting the quotes dealing with the heart, what can be done. I included them only to emphasize how our desire to meet our needs - whatever they may be - initates in the heart and must be guided by "guided" intellgence - Krsna's Pure devotee - in order achieve the goal of "SELF realization". Krsna consciousness is first and last about SELF realization. There will come a time Srila Prabhupada said when we will be obliged to fly our own airplane. Geese fly together - but simultaneously - alone. That is our position.

My answer to BB was dealing with his particular questions. My answer deals with assisting any new man with approaching Krsna Consciousness first from the perspective of meeting his eternal need to revive HIS relationship with Lord Krsna; not dealing with the knowledge that others may or may not have fallen from the path - in one way or the other. This was the exclusive reason for my offering anything about - desire or the "heart".

Even those whom you might suggest have no heart - are indeed acting to secure their own interest - at every single moment. The question will always present itself: is their actions or intentions something I would wish to replicate? Is their action or idea something I could share or embrace or follow?

Is it in my real long term interest?

I hope that is all right.

Praghosa

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 06:28 PM PST

Mother Hari Kirtan;

You are asking me a question. On whose behalf? Are you attempting to satisfy someone who inquired of you "What is Praghosa prabhu saying?" or is that you want to know or understand me better?

YS Praghosa das

Posted by shiva das @ 12/15/2005 04:12 PM PST

Uttama there is a difference between the sentiment of rasa and sentimentalism displayed by neophytes and bogus spiritualists and sahajiyas in the garb of devotees of God. They give themselves away by their reliance on sentimanalism, their rejection of the philosophical conclusions of the acaryas and by their neophyte behavior.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.102

The Vaiṣṇavas are by far the greatest philosophers in the world, and the greatest among them was Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhu, whose philosophy was again presented less than four hundred years later by Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Mahārāja. Therefore one must know very well that Vaiṣṇava philosophers are not sentimentalists or cheap devotees like the sahajiyās. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas were vastly learned scholars who understood Vedānta philosophy fully, for unless one knows Vedānta philosophy he cannot be an ācārya. To be accepted as an ācārya among Indian transcendentalists who follow the Vedic principles, one must become a vastly learned scholar in Vedānta philosophy, either by studying it or hearing it.

Bhakti develops in pursuance of Vedānta philosophy. This is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (1.2.12):

tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā

paśyanty ātmani cātmānaḿ bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā

The words bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā in this verse are very important, for they indicate that bhakti must be based upon the philosophy of the Upaniṣads and Vedānta-sūtra. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī said

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pañcarātra-vidhiḿ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir utpātāyaiva kalpate

[BRS 1.2.101]

"Devotional service performed without reference to the Vedas, Purāṇas, Pañcarātras, etc., must be considered sentimentalism, and it causes nothing but disturbance to society." There are different grades of Vaiṣṇavas (kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī), but to be a madhyama-adhikārī preacher one must be a learned scholar in the Vedānta-sūtra and other Vedic literatures because when bhakti-yoga develops on the basis of Vedānta philosophy it is factual and steady. In this connection we may quote the translation and purport of the verse mentioned above (Bhāg. 1.2.12):

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.12

tac chraddadhana munayo
jnana-vairagya-yuktaya
pasyanty atmani catmanam
bhaktya sruta-grhitaya

The seriously inquisitive student or sage, well equipped with knowledge and detachment, realizes that Absolute Truth by rendering devotional service in terms of what he has heard from the Vedānta-śruti.

PURPORT

The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord, Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead, who is the full-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of human beings — the karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the absolute person. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literatures, the Supreme Person is realized by devotional service which is backed by full knowledge and detachment from material association. We have already discussed the point that devotional service is followed by knowledge and detachment from material association. As Brahman and Paramātmā realization are imperfect realizations of the Absolute Truth, so the means of realizing Brahman and Paramātmā, i.e., the paths of jñāna and yoga, are also imperfect means of realizing the Absolute Truth. Devotional service which is based on the foreground of full knowledge combined with detachment from material association, and which is fixed by dint of the aural reception of the Vedānta-śruti, is the only perfect method by which the seriously inquisitive student can realize the Absolute Truth. Devotional service is not, therefore, meant for the less intelligent class of transcendentalists.

Posted by Bhakta Ray @ 12/15/2005 02:32 PM PST

Sri Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was not a neophyte. On the contrary he was a direct incarnation of Krsna Himself. He could experience devotional ecstasies because he was pure and unalloyed without Maya, mental concoctions.
This is precisely why the neophyte cannot and should not aspire to the intimate rasas of devotional lila. He should learn submissively from the bona fide guru and serve him.

"The mind cannot be pure, just as a fossil cannot produce life. Similarly, the mind cannot produce sraddha, divine faith. Sraddha is original and fundamental. When the Supreme Lord appears in the heart, the mind vanishes. Reality is just the opposite of speculation. Darkness cannot produce light; light comes and darkness vanishes. Truth appears when pure consciousness emerges and mental speculation vanishes. The mind is concerned with misconception. It is an element of the apara-sakti, the inferior potency. That potency is both subtle and gross. Earth, water, fire, air and ether are gross manifestations; mind, intelligence and ego are subtle. But they're all material.

The soul is transcendental. Svarupa-sakti, or the Lord's personal potency, bhajana, or divine service, and Goloka-Vaikuntha are all supra-mundane and transcendental. They are beyond the soul, not on the denser realm where the mind is located. Properly speaking, purity or impurity cannot be attributed to the mind. If we do, everything will be misunderstood. The mind emerges from the false ego and it is imbued with the tendency to exploit. "
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/follow-the-angels/angels-91-110.html

Posted by Uttama @ 12/15/2005 02:13 PM PST

Haribol Siva,

You said that sentimentalism is for neophytes when it comes to God consciousness. People without experience and education tend to rely on sentimentalism when it comes to spirituality.

In some of Lord Caitanya's more confidental pastimes, He displays great sentimental feelings in the mood of Srimati Radharani. Is He a neophyte?

Posted by shiva das @ 12/15/2005 01:26 PM PST

BB das:

I just think some people who post here and many devotees in general are spiritual frauds out to seek adulation and exploit others in their so called devotional sentiments.

So "crack up" laughing at your/their childish antics, is more like it ;)

Posted by bb das @ 12/15/2005 12:59 PM PST

Wow! It looks like Sivaji is starting to crack.

With all that has been said against him and his mental speculative ideas and "vision" which is NOT the Vision of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada he stoops to defending his false ego.

Interesting isn't it...?

bb das

Posted by shiva das @ 12/15/2005 12:36 PM PST

Hi Uttama

You wrote:

Nice things about the heart, but be careful! Siva does not seem to have a heart, only a brain. He may have something to say about following your heart.

Sentimentalism is for neophytes when it comes to God consciousness. People without experience and education tend to rely on sentimentalism when it comes to spirituality. We see it all of the time. The reason for it is a lack of education and experience. People who are experienced and educated are not sentimental because they know the reality of any situation. God is not sentimental. God has a job to do in the mundane world, if God was sentimental there would be no material world and no one would be made to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Our lives are a very serious matter to God. Sentimentalism is based on ignorance of God.

The dirty things in the heart of a conditioned soul are the root cause of all troubles for him. A conditioned soul is surrounded by the manifold miseries of material existence, but on account of his gross ignorance he is unable to remove the troubles due to dirty things in the heart, accumulated during the long prison life in the material world. He is actually meant to serve the will of the Supreme Lord, but on account of the dirty things in the heart, he likes to serve his concocted desires. These desires, instead of giving him any peace of mind, create new problems and thus bind him to the cycle of repeated birth and death. These dirty things of fruitive work and empiric philosophy can be removed only by association with the Supreme Lord.(Bhag. 2.1.22)

Talk is cheap, anyone can spout some sentimental words and the ignorant and inexperienced will take that as a sign of pure soul and an advanced spirituality. I know better. Sentimentalism is the refuge of the ignorant and inexperienced, it's all they have in their actual relationship with God.

People who don't know God and true spirituality refer to them in a sentimental fashion because they have no real experience or realization of either. They give what they have. The egotists and exploiters try to pass that off as a qualification for sainthood. I laugh at such childish antics. Children may play at being policemen or soldiers or princes or kings, but it's all fantasy, there is no real substance to their sentimental daydreams. The Lord sits within them, yet they want to spend their time looking for their goals in life somewhere else. They will bray like jackasses about their hearts, about their love, all of it an act to satiate their desire for fame and adulation. Sitting within, the Lord knows the truth of their situation. As do I.

Posted by Hari Kirtan d.d. @ 12/15/2005 12:33 PM PST

Dear Praghosa dasa,

Would you be so kind to explain what exactly is the self interest you are following? And since you are mentioning children, and I am a grandmother, I would be very interested to learn, which are the values you are intending to teach to your children with the stance you are taking?

- Hare Krsna. Your servant, Hari Kirtan d.d.

Posted by Balarama @ 12/15/2005 12:17 PM PST

If I only had a Heart....?

If I only had a Brain....?

Just musing sorry...

Hari Bol!

Posted by Uttama @ 12/15/2005 11:42 AM PST

Haribol, Praghosa Prabhu.
Nice things about the heart, but be careful! Siva does not seem to have a heart, only a brain. He may have something to say about following your heart.

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 10:36 AM PST

Dear BB das
This is an understandable question prabhu. One that does manifest and take on a degree of importance from time to to time.

However in raising the particular issue I have been attempting to prod my young friend Mark with, I am trying to keep the focus upon Srila Prabhupada's direct guidance and his instructions in their practical application.

Your question deals with practically dealing with the multifarious misapplication of these various instructions and/or the misrepresentation of his general guidance found in his books.

I do not contest any of the History of Malfeasance that has accompanied the evolution of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission. I lived through most of it; and am living through and raising my children within the framework of our present day and all that this implies as well.

However - all actions are preceded by thinking and more importantly FEELING. In the sales world it is sometimes said "No one buys using logic and reason. They buy under the influence of emotion and then only later - employ their logic and reason to justify their purchase". So FEELING - DESIRE is very important.

It was said by one poet Jacques Benigne Bossuel:

"The heart has reasons that reason does not understand."
Jacques Benigne Bossuel

This is also a very poignant comment about the impetus of love:

"Love is not blind -- it simply enables one to see things others fail to see."

How about this as well from the poet Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye."

I include these quotes only to highlight the influence of the compelling force of "The Heart" and for no other reason.

As we awaken to our plight here - either spontaneously - or with the prodding of the pure devotees pushing us we THINK of or consider our situation. We require guidance to correctly assess our situation and then if we are blessed and fortunate - we come into contact with the Lord's devotees. They then reveal to us our TRUE PLIGHT and our TRUE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY in creating this "plight" and our personal capacity to take hold of the means to reverse the effects of our previous errant choices that produced our "PLIGHT" to begin with. With their merciful inspiration and intercession - we can become INFUSED - now through the HEART - with the needed conviction or faith (adau sraddha) and then and we develop the DESIRE(HEART)to take to the process of acting under the directions of the Spiritual Representative of Lord Krsna.

In the beginning we will naturally come to Krsna Consciousness acting fully in our own self interest. This is the foundation of intelligent action. It never ceases. This acting in our own self interest is synonomous with being alive.Even when we appear to act for others or on behalf of others we are doing so because we recognize it to be in our best interest for some reason to do so. The more Krsna Conscious we are - the more we will see acting for myself or others correctly, is just an outgrowth of acting for Krsna under the careful guidance of Lord Krsna's pure devotees - which is also really acting for my own "best interest".

So when you are explaining the opportunity inherently there in taking shelter again of our Dearmost Friend Lord Krsna to a newcomer - it is important to understand how to properly explain any irregularities or inconsistencies and/or deviations, gross or subtle that have manifest from time to time.

However, prior to your dealing with that - YOU must know what are Srila Prabhupada's actual instructions - both the general and the specific - that will fully prevent any of the mistakes of others to discourage or dissuade the aspiring candidate for pure love of Lord Krsna from diving into the samkirtan mission of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu full force.

We must know exactly what Srila Prabhupada taught us and instructed us - so that no matter what happens to others' enthusiasm and/or faith in the process given by our Acharya - our determination will be secure in the rock solid foundation of Srila Prabhupada's gift - his Bhaktivedanta Purports and his direct orders.

I am not saying nor have I ever said - that even now today - in December of 2005 - ISKCON is presenting this opportunity perfectly to the newcomers. I have said they have it about 90% correct in action. They lack the courage or the faith to refer to these actions with the correct termininolgy and though someone could argue that terminology is not that important - I affirm that it is. Words are not what we want them to mean. They have a standard, accepted meaning and we are not at liberty to misuse, or abuse that. If we do, we suffer the consequences.

Your request I will assume is sincere. You ask:

1. "What and when should we tell the new "stoked up" person who inquires about the History and present status of Bogus Gurus in Iskcon and the scandals they represent past and present?"

What should we tell them?

As much or as little as is needed to illustrate all that is involved in helping them serve their own spiritual self interest Srila Prabhupada said his program was to offer THE REAL THING - not preach against the bogus. Making that information the subject matter for comprehensive consideration may or may not be of any merit whatsoever.

Once a new man actually understands what Srila Prabhupada taught and what his actual choices are in all matters - if he is intelligent and mindful of his best interest - the past transgressions of anyone - will never prevent him from taking full advantage of Srila Prabhupada's merciful guidance - no matter what anyone is doing or did or did not do - in the past.

Your second question:

2. "If we decide to explain, one will be asked to leave the temple. What should we do under such a very realistic situation?"

I do not have such an experience. However that is not to say that you do not and if that is so - it should be addressed and dealt with. If yours or anyone's explanation for the past - is not true and accurate - then of course a competent and responsible Temple President is duty bound to correct the misrepresentation of history. If someone insists upon pushing false information - then they are duty bound to act a man and go their separate way.

However if no inaccurate depiction is being pushed and the past is properly and CONSTRUCTIVELY being represented - all in the interest of furthering the distribution of the Holy Name and Srila Prabhupada's books jthen I am certain that Krsna will help everyone to find their place. Nothing can check bonafide samkirtan. Nothing and no one. This is science prabhu.

Krsna is real and He is in charge. No one else.

So tell me - where and how did you come to feel this was your case and I will try to assist you in this matter.

I hope this answer is satsifactory prabhu. If I have left something unclear or unhelpful then let me know and I will be more than happy to offer you whatever assistance I can in our mutual effort to serve the wonderful mission of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada

Posted by Mark @ 12/15/2005 10:12 AM PST

Hari Bol!

Not so fast buster! I am addressing my new friend Praghosa Dasa. (anyone who calls me friend as much has he has must be my friend right?)

Praghosa Dasa's statement:

I can of course offer what Srila Prabhupada did in fact provide. I have resisted that for one reason only. My friend Mark basically challenged my statement asserting that his thesis does in fact offer this.

I never asserted that Rocana Dasa's thesis "Sampradaya Acharya" offers the entire sum and substance of what Srila Prabhupada's instructions were as to how come up with solutions to the problems any person with a heart does know there to be in Iskcon.

I simply questioned your absolute dismissal of his thesis as worthless, your lack of offering what you now say "of course you can provide", and pointed out clearly that Rocana was requesting that others explore the issues more deeply by saying, quote,

"I welcome the opportunity to explore these issues more deeply. It will require the work of others far more spiritually elevated than I to present to the world the unalloyed version of Srila Prabhupada’s purpose and pastimes. I sincerely pray that I can make a small contribution or play a part in establishing this truth."

So for all YOUR hemming and hawing, and criticisms, now you admit all along that you have had the perfect solution, but have been withholding such, which could save all the victims of Terror in Iskcon, just because I challenged your blanket criticism of Rocana's attempt.

That is despicable behavior. I am so angry I am beside myself.

I have decided that you actually exemplify and epitomize the problems withing Iskcon. If you were so tight with the entirety of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, then why the hell aren't you guiding his ship and preventing all these tradgedies, now that we know they were and have been happening even when our Lord and Master was on the planet.

And who are you to withhold such from anyone?

You better have a good answer, or better yet, just humbly apologize for your incredible offense. If you sabotage one more honest discussion here, it will not bode well for you, for I will feverishly pray for some direct divine intervention on behalf of all vicitims everywhere that you be rendered incapable of perpetrating such acts ever again.

GRRRRRRRRR.

Mark

Posted by bb das @ 12/15/2005 08:16 AM PST

Pragosh Prabhu,

I have a question (simple) for you, if you don't mind?

What and when should we tell the new "stoked up" person who inquires about the History and present status of Bogus Gurus in Iskcon and the scandals they represent past and present?

If we decide to explain, one will be asked to leave the temple. What should we do under such a very realistic situation?

Thank you.

ys
bb das

Posted by praghosa das @ 12/15/2005 07:50 AM PST

Mark good job. Great answer to a very very simple question.

As much as you blather on and on - you demonstrate that you haven't a clue as to why I would ask this question of you or you simply do not have the answers given by HDG or you do, but reject them as irrelevant.

Thanks once again for am easy job left undone.

Shiva - if I don't pull the plug on this it could go on forever.

You write "Rocana Das's thesis is a commentary on how he views Srila Prabhupada's teachings can be successfully implemented and also he gives a critique of where he thinks Iskcon has gone wrong."

I have consistently emphasized that his thesis does not do that. It is a dead end because he does not represent Srila Prabhupada's instructions. His thesis is every bit as devoid of Srila Prabhupada's clear simple formula as was some of the most "fantastic" writing of HH Bhaktitirtha swami. Srila Prabhupda's instructions are not there. In fact - they are "CONSIPICUOUS BY THEIR ABSENCE". Fixing the problems that are there or have been there in ISKCON must represent Srila Prabhupada's direct orders. If they do not - but only skirt around them - they are essentially useless.

I have been pushing my friend Mark to provide me Srila Prabhupada's answers to a simple question. I emphasize that this question is absolutely relevant to everything Rocan has concluded and to everything an aspiring man might ask after gaining access to Srila Prabhupada's Bhaktivedantna Purports.

Evidentally Mark is not familiar with Srila Prabhupada's teachings in this regard. My asking the question does have a purpose; not the purpose that is conjured by My friend Mark but it does have a purpose. Mark's inability to provide these ridiculously simple answers demonstrates two important aspects to what I am trying to illustrate:

1. Knowledge of and Faith in the simple system Srila Prabhupada gave us for acting upon his instructions has been terribly eroded over the last