11/23/2005
"Over the months of September and October, HH Danavir Goswami and I were engaged in a series of discussions on the subject of ISKCON's re-initiation policy and guru tattva, in general. For those interested in revisiting the entire thread, the editorials were as follows:" Read full article.
Replies: 164 Comments
Posted by Jahnava @ 12/09/2005 02:37 PM PST
The "It's Taboo, Prabhu" blog thread has grown into a towering mountain of ideas. While we don't want to discourage the continuation of this discussion, we don't want the blog software to topple over and crash. So, this thread has been closed, and a fresh thread opened, "It's Taboo -- Part II".
Posted by Pat @ 12/09/2005 02:14 PM PST
Dear Mark,
You said: You are obviously new to this sort of thing. Your broad blanket statements and hypocrisy speaks for itself to the discerning reader. So with all the humility I can muster in the face of your cheap shot, go back to school.
Sheesh!
Please do not try to silence me. It won’t work. You don’t scare me either. I have firm conviction that I am on the right path working within Iskcon (warts and all). Therefore, with all sincerity, I feel the protection of Krsna.
You said that you belonged to an underground movement in America which does battle with the government or the “so called Illuminati” - or whoever they are supposed to be. You mentioned how you lost comrades to death in this endeavour. Now you say that you are prepared to transform these efforts to do battle against the devotees serving within Iskcon. This all sounds dangerous and scary. If you belong to the IRM, then I have some experience of your confrontational and intimidating method of operation. You are wasting your time. Krsna is in control.
And which school should I go back to - the IRM brainwashing school?
Your servant
PatPosted by shiva das @ 12/09/2005 01:16 PM PST
bb das you forgot to include that quote within it's context, here is the previous paragraphs from what you quoted:
There is a tendency in many devotees to take a somewhat similar tact as you suggest whenever they "preach". I see it in lectures by swamis and from common devotees all of the time. They "preach" almost exclusively about the "dangers" of the material world and how being a devotee is the only safe harbor, usually hardly mentioning Krishna or Bhagavat philosophy other then as something to be faithful towards.
They preach about negatives. Their so called preaching is based on and revolves around fear inducement rather then enlightening Bhagavat philosophy. Whatever happened to speaking the message of the Gita? Recently I started to check out online audio lectures from various swamis and Iskcon leaders. Almost everyone was preaching the same exact message. They were all speaking about the dangers of bad association, the dangers of not serving Krishna, the dangers of the material world, the danger of not remaining in Iskcon, the horrors of the current world situation etc. They focused almost entirely on fear enducement rather then on comprehensive Bhagavat philosophy
And then I also added:Pragosh Das you have misunderstood what I have written. I didn't say that I "receive nourishment" from speakers from the Gaudiya Math, in fact I don't read or hear from them unless I come across something by them by chance on the internet or if I am searching for a particular vision that they have on a particular topic so that I can be acquainted with their philosophical vision. I have read and heard from them to a small extent because of that. I wrote this earlier:
(the quote from bb das)
That has been a common occurence for me i.e ex Iskcon bhaktas telling me that they have found a true source of inspiration and "nectar" from a Gaudiya Math guru which they found lacking in Iskcon. I have been told repeatedly that what passes for Bhagavat pravachan in Iskcon on a day to day basis is very uninspiring, unenlightening and geared towards inducing fear in the devotees so as to keep them compliant and fearfull of leaving Iskcon.
I don't know how many times I have heard from ex Iskcon bhaktas of the distrubing traumatic experiences they had when they left Iskcon. The common complaint was that they felt full of fear and anxiety about their spiritual position in life, often they say it took years for them to become well adjusted individuals.
In my opinion this is due to the constant repetition of fear inducing classes. It becomes drilled into peoples heads that outside of Iskcon there is a great monster licking it's chops ready to devour them and turn them into drug addicted sexual deviants and their lives are going to end up going down the drain for millions of lifetimes.
bb das thanks for the opportunity to get out the word, but do you think it's proper to change the subject in a thread in order to try and make some kind of ad hominem statement? It clutters up threads if you start to go way off the topics being discussed, just a thought.
As to why I won't reply to your others repetitious points, I've decided that if you don't think that what I've already said to you is enough, I can live with that.Posted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 12:11 PM PST
Haribol Mark,
It looks like your the only one "fully alligned". I am sorry for not recognizing that sooner.
I miss understood, I thought those who are following the 4 regs and chanting sixteen rounds daily trying to give up offenses and preaching day and night to as many sincere souls as possible to surrender to Krsna was fully aligned with the Vision of Srila Prabhupada.
I guess I have not really figured it all out.
ys
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/09/2005 11:49 AM PST
Dear Praghosa Das,
I apologize for offending your sensibility of decorum. And you are correct as well.
By way of explanation, I never met Srila Prabhupada in the flesh, and all I ever did was try to follow his instructions and get impeded by many of his so called disciples.
When he appeared in that dream I felt some intimacy toward him, because there was some affection shown toward me. Whether it was him or Chaitya Guru's magic, which we now know could Both be possible, the affection was still there.
This was reflected in my sweetly remembering my only encounter of this nature by referring to him as Swamiji. So much for my perfect etiquette. Are you really concerned for my advancement by pointing this out, or are you just nitpicking?
And to BB Das,
you recently tried to refresh my memory, in defense of your libelous remark, by saying,
Just to refresh Bhakta Mark about his Own statement;
Mark wrote:
"BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be."
Let me refresh your memory as to what you said, and then you can see how different the two are.
"It’s quite presumptuous to make the claim that there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
For anyone else who is either slightly unaware of the definitions of the words involved, or who has the same agenda of selective ignorance, let's compare...
"no people left who are FULLY ALIGNED with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupada envisioned for Iskcon"
versus
"there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
Is it possible to be sincere, and have some level of devotional qualification, and yet be not Fully aligned with Srila Prabhupada's vision? Of course!
I have stated many times that one of my goals is to PROTECT the sincere and devotional who still serve within an institutional structure that has been DIVORCED from the Founder's vision due to rascal leadership.
I really wish that you, BB Das, were able to display the same qualities of sincerity and humility you once claimed you saw in me when I received correction at your hand, by admitting your mistake. I know you got it in you.
Libelous Defamation does not become you.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 10:19 AM PST
Here is one of many speculative generalization from the past from our Siva das;
"No wonder so many people leave Iskcon to follow other Gurus from the Gaudiya Math. The Gaudiya Math gurus speak philosophy, they speak about the various deep philosophical discourses from the Bhagavatam and from the Gita and from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta.
You almost never hear the hacknayed fear enducing dribble that passes as Bhagavat discourse in Iskcon from those gurus.
When many Iskcon devotees first start to hear Gaudiya Math gurus give discourses, they almost always see the big difference in presentation. They always tell me about "the nectar" that the guru is presenting which they cannot find in Iskcon."
Rocan are you singing from this same song book?
Here is what we're protecting sincere Iskcon devotees from!
ys
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 12/09/2005 08:14 AM PST
Hello Maharaja,
Thank you for your comments.
No one can say that "Krsna cannot do this". Or "Krsna cannot do that". Krsna is "swarat" independent and this is one of the unique features that demonstrates that He is God!
However - anyone can claim this or that. "Prabhupada has told me this. Prabhupada has told me that. Prabhupada appeared to me and ordered me to do this." They may even believe it to be reality and indeed - because Krsna can do anything - he can act through anyone or anything - and demonstrate His independence and full potency - by directly communicating with anyone through his pure devotee. Discussing what "could" be possible - or "can" be experienced - given that Lord Krsna can do anything is always enlivening. We marvel at Mahaprabhu's chasing away the clouds that threatened to disrupt his samkirtan, or His planting a mango pit and instantly producing the sweetest, juciest mangoes in all the three worlds! We recount how the Lord changed the course of history in a mere 18 days at Kuruksetra or Madhavendra Puri arranged a fabulous Anna Kuta in 1 Day! Yes Krsna CAN do anything and does! And if He likes He can order his empowered Representative to intervene in the life or lives of his devotees!
This "can" be done.
However this is not how Srila Prabhupada's "presence" is primarily given. Dreams and visions etc - cannot be called upon to authenticate the management of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON mission. His teachings and instructions were given us by His Divine Grace to ensure that this samkirtan mission is always founded upon solid "scientific" Knowledge that is sastrically verifiable and blessed by the guidance of our unblemished Parampara.
If anyone studies carefully the 3 interviews between His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and the London Reporter, Ms Nixon, and Mr Desmond O'Ogrady - recorded in their entirety in the SSR - and then reads Srila Prabhpada's essay on The Spiritual Master recorded on the appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in 1936 he or she will have all their questions dealing with finding a proper spiritual guided to bring us back to our original Krsna Consciousness.
Right there - in his book. Dreams or no dreams - nothing was left to chance by His Divine GRace. Nothing at all.
So though we agree in principle on what "can" occur, I am also certain that we agree on what Srila Prabhupada arranged in order to prevent the mission from suffering any setback as result of anyone's mistaking hallucination for transcendental communication.
Just as Srila Prabhupada said that if a so-called siksa guru speaks something incongruous with the teachings of one's bonefide spirital master - he is not a real siksa guru, likewise if any dream does not send us to the real shelter Srila Prabhupada arranged for us - his books and guidance in all its actual forms - such "dreams" should be as disregarded as the disruptive bum on samkirtan who tries to impede your samkirtan. Just like a fly is brushed aside by the tail of a massive elephant! If one dreams something that compels us to dive deep into the shelter of Srila Prabhupada and his devotees - then it is as beneficial as any other form of remembrance of guru and Krsna as one might have during his waking state.Posted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 06:38 AM PST
Siva,
It's inconcievable regardless of the size of your head or mental speculation. Just accept what the Mahajanas have said. It's easier and absolute whether you can figure it out or not. Just a suggestion.
Notice your lack of reply to my speaking of Your agenda for all to leave Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon. They're all just worshipping the Institution only right? They havn't figured it out like you and Rocan.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/09/2005 02:31 AM PST
Dear Trivikrama Maharaja I think my brain is average sized but I may have a swelled head and that may give the appearance of a large brain.
I agree that Krishna could inform Srila Prabhupada, Krishna can do whatever He wants. But if Srila Prabhupada is in Krishna lila then I don't see how Krishna can do such a thing to a resident of Krishna lila without revealing to them more then he wants them to know. If Srila Prabhpada is a gopa in Goloka right now he won't know that he is in Goloka, he won't know that Radha and Krishna, Balarama etc are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That rasa in Goloka is based on the feeling of seeing Krishna, Radha etc as equals. Vaikuntha is where Krishna is related to as the Supreme Lord. Krishna Lila is where Krishna is related to as an equal, as an extraordinary human, but still as a human. The gopas, gopis, parents, etc are not allowed to have knowledge of Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes they have thoughts that he may be an avatar due to his extraordinary qualities and activities, but then yogamaya causes them to forget. How can Srila Prabhupada possibly be informed about the Krishna consciousness movement without knowing that Krishna is in fact God? Krishna would have to allow Srila Prabhupada the knowledge that He doesn't want any of the jivas in Goloka to have i.e that Krishna is God. That would destroy the rasa of Krishna lila. It would serve no purpose.Posted by bb das @ 12/09/2005 02:14 AM PST
Dear Siva/ Rocan,
Here is Srila Prabhupada’s vision, words and instructions on how the Bona fide Spiritual Master is conscious and responsive to his disciples and sincere followers; always!
Note the difference between what the Founder Acarya of Iskcon says and that of your good selves. You tell me if you are preaching the same as the previous “saints and founders”, or is it that you are more advanced and have understood something beyond Srila Prabhupada’s realizations and presentation.
Oh… and please remember, it’s the same audience.
HDG Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s Appearance Day, Lecture -- Atlanta, March 2, 1975:
Prabhupada: So now, by the grace of Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu and IN THE PRESENCE OF MY GURU MAHARAJA, you are so nice boys and girls. So in front of Caitanya Mahaprabhu you are chanting Hare Krsna mantra, and you are taking part in it very seriously. SO MY GURU MAHARAJA WILL BE VERY, VERY MUCH PLEASED UPON YOU AND BLESS YOU WITH ALL BENEFITS.
SO HE WANTED THIS, AND HE IS NOT... IT IS NOT THAT HE IS DEAD AND GONE. THAT IS NOT SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. HE IS SEEING. I NEVER FEEL THAT I AM ALONE. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means... Practically, just like a vagabond I came. BUT I HAD FULL FAITH THAT "MY GURU MAHARAJA IS WITH ME." I NEVER LOST THIS FAITH, AND THAT IS FACT.
Letter to: Brahmananda -- Los Angeles 19 December, 1968:
YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PRAY TO HIS DIVINE GRACE BECAUSE NATURALLY HE WILL BE MORE AFFECTIONATE TO YOU THAN TO ME. Generally one is more affectionate to the grandchildren than to the children directly. SO I AM SURE THAT MY GURU MAHARAJA WILL BE EASILY INCLINED TO YOUR PRAYERS THAN THAT OF MINE. YOU WILL DO GOOD ALWAYS BY OFFERING YOUR PRAYERS TO HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA GOSWAMI MAHARAJA.
(Srila Prabhupada letter, 5th March, 1968)
"Please be happy in separation. I am separated from my Guru Maharaj since 1936 but I AM ALWAYS WITH HIM SO LONG I WORK ACCORDING TO HIS DIRECTION. So we should all work together for satisfying Lord Krishna and in that way the feeling of separation will transform into transcendental bliss."
Devotee Letter -- San Francisco 7 April, 1967:
I always think of you because you are all my heart and soul. I am so pleased to have your association and I ALWAYS THANK MY SPIRITUAL MASTER OM VISNUPADA SRI SRIMAD BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI GOSWAMI MAHARAJA FOR HIS FAVOR BY SENDING ME SOME SINCERE REPRESENTATIVE OF HIM in missionary activities in this part of the world. I came here to execute His Will and by His Grace I have so many good souls … I consider you all as representative of my Guru Maharaja to help me in this helpless condition. MY GODBROTHERS DID NOT HELP ME BUT MY SPIRITUAL MASTER HAS HELPED ME. SO DO NOT THINK THAT I CAN EVER FORGET YOU EVEN FOR A MOMENT. I PRAY TO KRISHNA FOR YOUR MORE AND MORE ADVANCEMENT OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS.
CC Antya Concludiong Words:
I THINK THAT HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA IS ALWAYS SEEING MY ACTIVITIES AND GUIDING ME WITHIN MY HEART BY HIS WORDS. … It is to be admitted that whatever translation work I have done is through the inspiration of my spiritual master, because personally I am most insignificant and incompetent to do this materially impossible work. I DO NOT THINK MYSELF A VERY LEARNED SCHOLAR, BUT I HAVE FULL FAITH IN THE SERVICE OF MY SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA. IF THERE IS ANY CREDIT TO MY ACTIVITIES OF TRANSLATING, IT IS ALL DUE TO HIS DIVINE GRACE. Certainly if His Divine Grace were physically present at this time, it would have been a great occasion for jubilation, but EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT, I AM CONFIDENT THAT HE IS VERY MUCH PLEASED BY THIS WORK OF TRANSLATION. He was very fond of seeing many books published to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore our society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has been formed to execute the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
SMD 4.5: The Disciple Must Have Faith in the Spiritual Master:
Srila Prabhupada; …Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I STILL CONSIDER HIS DIVINE GRACE TO BE ALWAYS PRESENT WITH ME by his vani, his words.... I THINK THAT HIS DIVINE GRACE BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA IS ALWAYS SEEING MY ACTIVITIES AND GUIDING ME within my heart by his words…I do not think myself a very learned scholar, but I have full faith in the service of my spiritual master, His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. IF THERE IS ANY CREDIT TO MY ACTIVITIES OF TRANSLATING, IT IS ALL DUE TO HIS DIVINE GRACE.
Srila Prabhupada’s expression of dedication to his spiritual master in the first volume of the Bhagavatam, where he writes,
“To Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, my spiritual master.… He lives forever by his divine instructions and the follower lives with him.”
"How do you like them apples"?
ys
bb dasPosted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/09/2005 01:25 AM PST
I am not disputing Prahgosa's point that Srila Prabhupada's books are the basis. At the same direct communication from spiritual beings who are no longer manifest on this planet does have a vital role in Vaisnava history. Take for example how Bila Mangal Thakur's spiritual master spoke to him through the prostitute Cintamani.
Shivaji certainly does have a large brain, nobody can deny that. But I am not speaking from the brain but from the heart, not as a jnani but as a tattva-darsinah. Yes, I have SEEN the truth, Srila Prabhupada is currently very much involved in the lives of many of his followers. Through his books and sometimes directly.
What is the problem with that? Krishna can easily inform Srila Prabhupada that one of his followers is in need of his attention.
Here is Srila Prabhupada's own experience:
"Prabhupada: One has to accept the renounced order from another person who is in renounced order. So I never thought that I shall accept this renounced order of life. In my family life, when I was in the midst of my wife and children, sometimes I was dreaming my spiritual master, that he's calling me, and I was following him. When my dream was over, I was thinking. I was little horrified. "Oh, Guru Maharaja wants me to become sannyas…. How can I accept sannyasa?" At that time, I was feeling not very satisfaction that I have to give up my family and have to become a mendicant. At that time, it was a horrible feeling. Sometimes I was thinking, "No, I cannot take sannyasa." But again I saw the same dream. So in this way I was fortunate. My Guru Maharaja (Prabhupada begins to cry, choked voice) pulled me out from this material life. I have not lost anything. He was so kind upon me..."
Notice Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that the Paramatma pulled me out from this material life. No it was his Guru Maharaja.
Ys TSPosted by bb das @ 12/08/2005 09:05 PM PST
Just to refresh Bhakta Mark about his Own statement;
Mark wrote:
BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be.
ys bb dasPosted by Praghosa das @ 12/08/2005 06:50 PM PST
Hello Mark
Prabhu I mean you know disrespect in pointing this out - and I note the general tone of your comments is always quite respectful of Srila Prabhupada - however in your comments you referred to our Srila Prabhupada as "Swamiji". This was most probably a small slip up on your part but it is not our place to ever refer to Srila Prabhupada as "Swamiji".
There is a most wonderful quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wherein he addresses the proper way to view indivuals such as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur or our Srila Prabhupada:
"There is an eternal, impassible line of demarcation between the Savior and the Saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this, and therefore they do not aspire or pretend to be the Savior, but always keep themselves as the servant of the Savior. The Acharyas belong to the category of spiritual world teachers, and they eternally occupy the superior position."-Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur,
I am sure that it is only an slip on your part but it is important when communicating in such a public forum to take this point into consideration.
I pray that I have not injured you by saying this but it is much more delightful to address our Srila Prabhupada with "great awe and reverence". Calling him Swamiji was unthinkable to his disciples by the year 1972.
It should remain that way.
Respecfully
Praghosa DasPosted by shiva das @ 12/08/2005 03:55 PM PST
From Srila Prabhupada letter to Mahananda dasa, 27th April 1970:
Regarding your questions, 'are the Spiritual Master and the Grand Spiritual Master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in love to Them'?-the answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you offer to your Spiritual Master and Superior Spiritual Master, all of them are conveyed to Krishna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always offer such prayers to Spiritual Master, Superior Spiritual Master, Vaisnava Acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha Krishna, that is the system.Posted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 03:07 PM PST
Hari Bol!
Most of us reading here knows what it is like to be lost in "the moment" for some period of time. Surrendered and acting spontaneously due to the Lord's mercy. During those periods, when the Lord's internal potency is guiding our thoughts, feelings, and actions, we are experiencing being channels for the Lord's Guru potency.
The Lord has many ways of manifesting his Guru potency.
Srila Prabhupada was an individual person. He was completely surrendered so felt spontaneously used by the Lord's internal potency ALL the time. Thus he was considered a MahaBhagavata and Jagat Guru.
But he was and is still an individual, personally having some experience.
The Lord himself, through the agency of Paramatma, manifests as Chaitya Guru to whomever he desires. This is Sri Krishna's and thus Sri Balarama's potency.
So he uses all those little particles that he is present in as Paramatma and designs a true replica of our dearest Gurudeva to appear in a picture, on our front porch, in our dreams, anywhere. To many of us at once even.
This does not diminish the fact that this is an actual manifestation of the Lord as Sri Guru.
What it does explain is why the unique individual person that Srila Prabhupada is, is NOT personally aware of all 50 manifestations of his likeness in all 50 of his disciples' dreams on the same night. Only Lord Krishna Pulls that off according to all the sastric evidence that I just don't have on hand because I am not an expert preacher in that regard, but it has all been posted somewhere in this thread.
However, it is possible for a Jiva to have the siddhi of bilocation, and I believe the maximum appearances is 16 where inconceivably there is some awareness of each encounter simultaneously. Thus we can each have a taste, if that is our desire, of a fraction of one of Krishna's ultimate potencies.
But as Anon pointed out, Srila Prabhupada said "many times" that he would appear as Chaita Guru.
Apparently the idea of having his little Jiva awareness scattered in a zillion places at once was not in line with his bhava.
So let's consider ourselves educated on this awesome topic. Thanks Anon.
I once had a dream where it seemed that Swamiji appeared to me in the temple kitchen. He looked at me like, "So? Big deal right, you know what to do, carry on." I was later embarrassed because I thought he could be having a much better time elsewhere.
I guess he was.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/08/2005 02:31 PM PST
Dear Hare Krsna.
You wrote:
"These days, one can convincingly fabricate any philosophy one likes; there are relevant quotes in sastra for practically any nonsense one comes up with"
You suggest that if it's in sastra and it contradicts your belief that it is nonsense. And then you talk about devotees being motivated by "envious" designs if they apparently accept whatever it is you think they should not accept, even if what you want them to accept contradicts standard Gaudiya siddhanta.
I found this quote of yours interesting?
"Actually, an advanced devotee will not think himself advanced."
How do you reconcile that with Sri Caitanya's order to become guru and liberate the land? If an advanced devotee thinks he is a neophyte then how will he be able to follow Sri Caitanya's order? How can a devotee take the role of a guru unless he is implying that he is more advanced then others?
How many gurus are there in Iskcon? Every single one of them thinks that they are more advanced then their disciples and the rest of the people in the world as well. They preach that they are qualified spiritual masters worthy of being seen as outward manifestations of Caitya guru. They teach that they are capable of taking you back to Godhead if you simply surrender to them.
You have no problem with their assertions of advancement. Yet if people outside of Iskcon say that they can guide others to some small degree then you jump up and want to call them all sorts of derogatory names for daring to not be "humble". How do you reconcile this discrepancy?
True humility is in always knowing that you are not the doer and that Krishna is controlling everything. Humility doesn't mean that you have to see yourself as being a neophyte incapable of giving Krishna to others. If that were the case then why are you giving your opinion as superior to others? Your standard of humility apparently applies only to those whom you disagree with.
660729BG.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: That is a chance given, that you can become a brahmana, you can become a great devotee of Lord Krsna, and you can become the spiritual master of the world. That is the... And I think you should take seriously.
761210DB.HYD Lectures
Prabhupada: We got this information from His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and that knowledge is still going on. You are receiving through his servant. And in future the same knowledge will go to your students. This is called parampara system. It is not that you have become a student and you'll remain student. No. One day you shall become also guru and make more students, more students, more. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, not that perpetually... Yes, one should remain perpetually a student, but he has to act as guru. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu... So we should become always a very obedient student to our guru. That is the qualification. That is the spiritual qualification.
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.Posted by Anon @ 12/08/2005 02:06 PM PST
All glories to Trivrikrama Swami: Yes, he is very correct. I have also had 6-7 dreams of Srila Prabhupada although I have never met him personally. 3 of these dreams were very intimate and in one, I was given a direct response to a question.
Be that as it may, the unique thing about "Srila Prabhupada dreams" is that he does not appear to every devotee in ISKON, or outside of ISKCON.
It is important to note that he appears in one's dreams because they were chosen for some transcendental reason and/or because there was a nagging feeling within the devotee. Srila Prabhupada appearing in one's dreams is not an ordinary occurrence and Srila Prabhupada has many times stated that he would appear in dreams as "caita-guru" I believe. That also dreams of the acarya or Krsna etc. were real. Dreams and visison by all the previous acaryas are a very common and have been documented in their biographies as well.
In my personal opinion, I do believe Srila Prabhupada and Krsna agree to appear in dreams not for entertainment reasons but primarily to surcharge that devotee with patience and enthusiasm and also because of reasons unbeknownst to us, or to carry out an imporatnt service in the future. Only Krsna knows the sincererity within a devotee's heart to recieve the acarya.
This is a very deep subject matter and of course, Srila Prabhupada is always with the sincere aspirant.Posted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 02:05 PM PST
Pat,
You are obviously new to this sort of thing. Your broad blanket statements and hypocrisy speaks for itself to the discerning reader. So with all the humility I can muster in the face of your cheap shot, go back to school.
Ok one hint. Don't waste your time criticizing others for being critical if you think it is such a waste of valuable time.
Sheesh!
Hare KrishnaPosted by Hare Krsna @ 12/08/2005 01:41 PM PST
Dear Devotees,
I agree with Maharaj that thousands of devotees have had some experience of Srila Prabhupada’s direct perceivable involvement in their lives. Only sincere devotees with firm faith in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon and those that are surrendered to his mission and following his instructions despite all the problems within can experience his presence. Others, namely the envious neophytes who think they know better will not have this revelation. Instead, they make all sort of excuses, they go through sastra with a magnifying glass to find quotes to suit their perverted agendas.
These days, one can convincingly fabricate any philosophy one likes; there are relevant quotes in sastra for practically any nonsense one comes up with. Krsna reciprocates to some extent with these mischievous, envious and power hungry agenda of devotees. He covers their eyes to the truth because they desire this. They falsely think that they are advanced and everyone else is neophyte as evident in the exchange between Siva and Mark where they subtly hint on their level of advancement. Actually, an advanced devotee will not think himself advanced.
All of these devotees (the Mark’s, the Rocana’s, the Siva’s, the different Rtvik camps etc etc) they all think that their way is the best. Krsna is playing according to their desire and because of their foolishness; they will spend their valuable lives on bickering and criticizing and wasting this great opportunity to make genuine advancement. In the meantime, through the guidance of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya, Iskcon will go from strength to strength and by Their mercy, the problems within will gradually be rectified.
Your servant
PatPosted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 01:00 PM PST
Dear Devotees.
BB Das says:
"I know many sincere Iskcon devotees/ godbrothers who are well aware of many of the complexities and problems within the Iskcon Society and are very honest and forthright about discussing openly."
I dare say that it was in large part (not totally) because of tremendous pressure brought to bear by others who came before me, and then me myself, that devotees who were victimized began to dare discussing openly the problems and being forthright and honest.
Then he said:
"Can’t you see how Krsna is purifying His movement from all these scandals and the person’s responsible for them. They are either no longer on this planet, fell down and left or are being rectified. The others cannot hide. It is just a matter of time. Krsna is quite capable of getting rid of these guys. We have to be patient, maintain our consciousness and look for opportunities to inculcate Krsna conscious solutions where ever we can."
Waiting silently with so called patience while someone commits one atrocity after another, hoping for the day when it becomes to much for their conscience or that there are enough people who see it to do something about it is not enough.
There is too much cowardice involved in this approach, and once the "big" fall down finally occurs, there is a trail of carnage a mile wide, and THEN these same rascals try to insinuate themselves back into Iskcon knowing they will find only mediocre resistance. Krishna purifies his movement from these scandals through his agents. US!
Our direct involvement and courage to confront the truth NOW.
And then he claims, regarding all these devotees he speaks of:
"They are strictly following, progressing nicely with the idea of helping devotees by setting an example of unflinching faith and dependence on the mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna."
Strictly following? Where are the communities? You know the ones where devotees are producing their own food and clothing. The ones where the women are truly protected, and the cows, and the children. And don't even try to cite that lame duck child protection office. I see through that. I have pages of Srila Prabhupada's orders regarding Varnashrama that are totally Not being followed. Not to mention the continual Guru racket and half hearted policy appeasements to keep the shindig going just a little longer.
And as for:
" Mark you need necessary adhikara to recognize such advanced and sincere souls serving Prabhupada’s instructions and Institution. It’s quite presumptuous to make the claim that there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
Can someone tell me what adhikara is necessary to publicly claim that I made the claim that there are "NO qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon."
For the record I never said such a thing, and am ashamed that such a remark was attributed to me.
Good thing I am here to point out your engaging in libel. Too bad you cannot edit this. Since you attack my reputation in this way, I take it as my bad karma, and will do nothing directly to counter you. Though I truly hope that in the spirit of this debate, there are some devotees with some courage who will see how such a statement could put my reputation and body in danger, and be sure to take proper legal action to halt your tendency toward defamation.
Get it straight. I am no pushover, and I am quite aware of my middling adhikari. This makes me more dangerous to status quo Rascals and their apologists then any so-called advanced devotee.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon!
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/08/2005 12:27 PM PST
Trivikrama Maharaja I dont' follow your logic.
It goes like this:
a) If Srila Prabhupada is a sampradaya acarya...
b) Then how can he not be able to be in thousands (millions?) of places simultaneously?
As for dreams I also had a dream of Srila Prabhupada many years ago, but it is my understanding that Paramatma controls what we perceive, if we need to see Srila Prabhupada in a dream then Paramatma will manifest that for us.
What you have done is known as the rhetorical demagogic debating technique known as argumentum ad populum which is considered a logical fallacy.I. Argumentum ad Populum (popular appeal or appeal to the majority):
The fallacy of attempting to win popular assent to a conclusion by arousing the feeling and enthusiasms of the multitude. There are several variations of this fallacy, but we will emphasize two forms.
A. "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society thinks or believes:
Person L says statement p or argument A. Person L is in the elite. Statement p is true or argument A is good.
B. "Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true:
Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true. Statement p is true.
II. Many advertising slogans are based on this fallacy: Strictly speaking one statement, considered by itself, cannot be a fallacy because it's not an argument. Nevertheless, the import seems to be in some cases an implicit argument with conversational implicature. I.e., the statement can easily be reconstructed from context into an implicit argument:
"Coffee is the think drink." (withdrawn by FDA)"Quick Kick is the National League thirst quencher.""Four Roses Whiskey is for men of distinction.""Sony. Ask anyone."
A. Occasionally, it is difficult to make a distinction between the ad verecundiam (appeal to authority) and the ad populum (appeal to the elite) fallacies.
B. The basis of the ad populum appeal is the assumption that large numbers of persons are more likely to be right than you are likely to be right. Also, in light of peer pressure, many persons feel it's better to be normal than to go against the crowd. Moreover, our desire to be approved by others often results in our joining the "bandwagon" of the probable winning side in a political contest.
III. The main problem with this fallacy is the fact that many people agree on something does not imply that what they agree on is true; nevertheless, the fact that many people agree, can be relevant evidence for the truth in some instances. The trick is to understand the nature of the relevance of the premisses to the conclusion.
Can you answer these questions?
A. We are told that the jivas in Krishna lila do not know who Sri Krishna really is even though they live with him. How could Srila Prabhupada be able to relate to devotees on earth about Krishna consciousness if he doesn't even know that he is with the Surpreme Personality of Godhead Himself even though he is directly enjoying life with Him?
B. Why would Sri Krishna bother Srila Prabhupada in his relationship with Himself and Sri Radha by the mental thoughts of potentially millions of people on earth? How would Srila Prabhupada enjoy his eternal position in Krishna lila and how could Sri Krishna enjoy Srila Prabhupada's association if at every second he is listening to millions of prayers?
C. How do you reconcile Jiva Goswami's statement that no one but Krishna can be in many places at the same time with your philosophy that Srila Prabhupada can be in thousands or even millions of places at the same time and hear and think and act on peoples prayers, dreams etc?
D. If guru is one, as Srila Prabhupada has stated, and if the guru is the transparent-via-medium for the caitya guru as Srila Prabhupada has stated, and if the guru is the outward manifestation of the caitya guru as Srila Prabhupada has stated, then who really is the guru? Is it the devotee who acts as the transparent-via-medium? or is it as Srila Prabhupada has said i.e:
"There does not arise any question of discriminating my Guru from yours or anyone else's. There is only one Guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. In the Mundaka Upanishad[1.2.12] it is said:
tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
"In order to learn the transcendental science, onemust approach the bona fide Spiritual Master indisciplic succession, who is fixed in the AbsoluteTruth."
Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the Guru. Therefore, if the AbsoluteT ruth is one -- about which we think there is nodifference of opinion -- the Guru cannot be two."Posted by bb das @ 12/08/2005 11:32 AM PST
Mark wrote:
BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be.
I wrote:
It’s not possible because it’s not true. I know many sincere Iskcon devotees/ godbrothers who are well aware of many of the complexities and problems within the Iskcon Society and are very honest and forthright about discussing openly. There are problems within every Institution which is comprised of conditioned souls struggling to purify their existence. Regardless, they have strong unflinching faith in Srila Prabhupada and his Instructions that we should never leave his Institution of Iskcon. They are strictly following, progressing nicely with the idea of helping devotees by setting an example of unflinching faith and dependence on the mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna. Mark you need necessary adhikara to recognize such advanced and sincere souls serving Prabhupada’s instructions and Institution. It’s quite presumptuous to make the claim that there are no qualified and sincere devotees serving within Iskcon.
Can’t you see how Krsna is purifying His movement from all these scandals and the person’s responsible for them. They are either no longer on this planet, fell down and left or are being rectified. The others cannot hide. It is just a matter of time. Krsna is quite capable of getting rid of these guys. We have to be patient, maintain our consciousness and look for opportunities to inculcate Krsna conscious solutions where ever we can. We must start with ourselves though.
No one can stop one from strictly following the Orders of the Bona fide Acarya Sri Guru. There are so many excuses and whining and complaining like spoiled children. This is not child’s play. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja said we should have leach like tenacity in following the orders and instructions of the Spiritual Master and that if we do, then we will receive the mercy and blessings of that Spiritual Master; despite what Siva and Rocan believe.
Iskcon is transcendental just like Vrndavana dham. Who can truly see that depends on one’s adhikara and faith. A materialist cannot see the true nature of the dham. He can only see the hogs , dogs, monkeys, and asses. They are not really seeing the dham. It’s like that Mark. Try to understand. Have faith in Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada and the Previous Acaryas. They will set it right in time.
All the best.
ys
bb dasPosted by praghosa das @ 12/08/2005 11:04 AM PST
Dear devotees,
I would like to address the comments of my dear friend and godbrother HH Trivikram Swami.
While I agree Maharaja that Srila Prabhuapada can certainly affect us in our subtle dreams during the night - I do believe that the principle way in which Srila Prabhupada directly influences each and every devotee's inner spiritual life - their moment to moment ability to remember Krsna - favorably and enthusiastically - is by means of his books, letters, lecutures and his committed disciples. I do not say this to minimize your point - but these "experiences" that many devotees have been granted - should never be emphasized over Srila Prabhupada's vani form. Dreams are just that dreams. They can be bonafide communion with Srila Prabhupada - they could be a mix of the spiritual and material. Confirmation of such experiences comes from Srila Prabhupada's books and servants.
It is tragic if devotees do not understand how "present" Srila Prabhupada is in each and every word he wrote. This is exactly how to to easily access Srila Prabhupada and I see it as our solemn duty to emphasize this over and over for everyone's benefit.
Please do not take it that I am disagreeing with you; I am not. Only I am offering what constitutes the most important way in which everyone should understand the special "opportunity" provided us all by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. He admitted that he in fact did not actually write his books but merely accepted the direct dictation of Lord Krsna who personally provided Srila Prabhupada each and every single word of his purports. This is the actual fact and anyone who reads and accepts their natural concise conclusions - is in DIRECT contact with Lord Sri Krsna Himself - through the loving devotional ecstacy of Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada said "I will never die. I will live forever in my books - and you will utilize".
This is sometimes passed off as a spiritual cliche; as if it is something inspirational that is oft times repeated merely for "effect" by someone trying to influence an audience on an emotional level towards the acceptance of Krsna Consciousness. I would offer that this statement is anything but that. This statement is as factual as saying "George Bush is the acting President of the United States" or "Consuming 1 teaspoon of Celtic Sea salt in a liter of water will provide your health great benefit". It is a factual reality.
You offered a very nice example of the devotees who had to endure the demise of Hari Kesa Das in Europe. They were perhaps misguided initially as exactly what role he was playing in their life and due to this artificial or perhaps incorrect presentation of who they were actually dependent upon - they were now thinking they were somehow less secure in their devotional service. Each devotees experience would naturally be different according to how personally "invested" they were in that relationship with Hari Kesa Das.
The truth is - their conviction and faith in Krsna Consciousness was rooted in the careful guidance of Srila Prabhupada first and theh the powerful "effects" that occur as one takes up the sincere rectitation of the Holy Name. These effects are actually described by Srila Prabhupada as a greatly diminished interest in the external energy and for all intents and purposes - an appetite for the Holy Name,Krsna Katha, prasadam and the association of devotees! When one finds his taste for these things replacing his former appetite for what is called "Maya" - all as a direct consequence of Chanting the Holy Name and hearing from Srila Prabhupada - then his or her position in Krsna Consciousness is fully secure. Hare Kesa's leaving, though certainly unwelcome by anyone and especially Srila Prabhupada - does not serve to dishearten the devotees but rather serves as the proverbial "cautionary tale" that can provide us all with a clear example of what to avoid in our application of Srila Prabhupada's teachings so as to avoid following in his misguided footsteps.
This is all easily possible - when Srila Prabhpada's disciples and granddisciples guide everyone in taking full advantage of the direct presence of Srila Prabhupada - who is every bit as alive and present today - as he was in 1972 - by means of his most wonderful purports.
We could all fall away but Srila Prabhupada's perfect guidance is always there and we need only emphasize this - over and over and over.
I offer this in support of the above mentioned comments.
"In November of 1969, while speaking in London's Conway Hall, Srila Prabhupada stated the following:
"The process is very simple. Just keep a picture of Lord Caitanya with His associates. Lord Caitanya is in the middle, accompanied by His principal associates -- Nityananda, Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa. One simply has to keep this picture. One can keep it anywhere. It is not that one has to come to us to see this picture. Anyone can have this picture in his home, chant this Hare Krsna mantra, and thus worship Lord Caitanya. That is the simple method. But who will capture this simple method? Those who have good brains. Without much bother, if one simply keeps a picture of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu at home and chants Hare Krsna, then one will realize God. Anyone can adopt this simple method. There is no expenditure, there is no tax, nor is there any need to build a very big church or temple. Anyone, anywhere, can sit down on the road or beneath a tree and chant the Hare Krsna mantra and worship God. Therefore it is a great opportunity."
Now I pray that I have offended no one by making these comments. I do not dispute your including dreams and or even "daytime recollections" of HDG as being aspects of our experiencing the presence of or guidance of our Srila Prabhupada. I only wish to underscore the most important way to experience Srila Prabhupada's direct intervention in our daily spiritual life; his Bhaktivedanta Purports, his lectures, his letters, and also his wonderful devotees, old and new who can help us increase our faith in all this "access" by their personal example.
I hope this is helpful in some way.
Thank you for your patience.
Praghosa DasPosted by Mark @ 12/08/2005 08:38 AM PST
Dear Devotees,
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I submit this realization that it may serve all of our understanding.
I have realized that according to my position, Shiva Das and BB Das are holding postures at extreme ends and yes that means I feel I have a more moderate perspective. Whatever claim to advancement that might signify to anyone so be it, I know I am not perfect, just trying my best.
BB Das has not in my opinion grasped that it is indeed possible that within what he calls Iskcon, there are no people left who are fully aligned with the spirit of what Srila Prabhupdada envisioned Iskcon to be.
Even when Srila Prabhupada was physically present, he was continually putting out fires because his disciples refused to listen to his instructions and implement them. They would stand present and listen, but not hear. If not for their fear, and thus a form of respect, for Srila Prabhupada, they would not have changed course when he came storming onto the scene demanding repentance. As a matter of fact, some STILL defied him, and were excommunicated for long periods of time.
For many reasons, BB Das is afraid to realize that there is no-one holding that line anymore, and has not been for quite sometime, and now the fox is guarding the hen-house, and he is trapped. What he continues to call Iskcon is clearly no longer so.
He says,
“You don’t seem to get the point that what is being worshiped by many is the Instructions of the Bona fide Spiritual Master not the Institution per se.”
If many were worshipping all his instructions, those many would never have let envious rascals co-opt Srila Prabhupada’s Vyasasana, not to mention the GBC and other powerful positions. NEVER. I was not there way back then, but I know once I saw what was going on a few years ago, I left the temple and formulated the best possible plan on what to do in terms of the true reality I saw before me. It wasn’t easy. But I felt it necessary.
What I appreciate is that BB Das can see what Iskcon was meant to be, and how strong Srila Prabhupada’s desire was that it be successfully implemented according to his plan.
So when he says,
“This does not necessarily mean that one is automatically blind to the problems and discrepancies within the Institution and supportive. Instead one looks to advance themselves spiritually in order to better help serve those within the Institution and indirectly benefit the whole Institution. I feel this would be Most pleasing to Srila Prabhupada.”
He is on the right track, but fails to feel my recommendation is valid. In order to advance oneself spiritually, one must become brutally honest with oneself. And if the leadership of Iskcon has become corrupted, and other devotees who have some integrity left are not in positions powerful enough to effect radical change, but are forced to compromise and accept small changes that will never amount to the overhaul necessary, to ignore that and continue on placating the envious is not a sign of spiritual advancement, and will not “serve” anyone who is a victim of the poor policies which continue to come from the highest level.
A sign of spiritual advancement would be adopting WHATEVER POLICY IS NECESSARY TO FIGHT BACK AND RESTORE SRILA PRABHUPADA’S PLAN.
As far as Shiva Das,
He obviously has a huge cranium and figured out right away all the deviations in all their forms, and having a very strong will as well, thus his name, set about trying to implement Varnashrama Dharma. He attempted to educate devotees still struggling within the co-opted Iskcon from afar. Very much like the IRM has done. It seems that over the years, both have come to the conclusion to no longer bother with trying to influence those within Iskcon who just won’t admit the depth of the deviation from Srila Prabhupada’s vision, and thus the gravity of the problem.
However in fairness to my original point, Shiva Das’ mind, which is controlled by Lord Krishna, had decided that some of what Srila Prabhupada ordered in regards to the institution of Daiva Varnashrama was directed to a time, place, and circumstance that is no longer applicable to his perspective of the preaching field. I feel that this is Lord Krishna controlling his mind using his agent Maha Maya Devi, and thus he has had truly mixed success.
I myself continually have this pointed out to me. Each day, another part of my perspective is shown to be influenced by my INORDINATE worldly desires which are not in line with Srila Prabhupada’s vision. Maha Maya Devi, doing her job, senses my desire and gives me the proportional perspective. When I trip over it, I cry out for mercy, Sri Guru steps in, and the faulty thoughts are replaced with a perspective from the Lords internal potency.
So with that said, anyone who will admit to not having it all figured out, I would love to continue to discuss with and see a solution unfold in the Lord’s time, considering our position as sadhana-bhaktas who will make mistakes. Whoever feels they have it down pat and need no revision, you don’t need a fool like me in your association so best pass me by.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by bb das @ 12/08/2005 04:44 AM PST
Sivaji Wrote:
…feel the institution is some kind of divine personage and more deserving of respect then the vaisnavas in general.
I wrote:
That is a serious speculative generalization. Rather, it is respectful and the “key to success” in spiritual life to follow strictly the Instructions of the Bona fide Spiritual Master who has asked his disciples and followers to not leave his Iskcon Institution. Regardless of the test!
This does not necessarily mean that one is automatically blind to the problems and discrepancies within the Institution and supportive. Instead one looks to advance themselves spiritually in order to better help serve those within the Institution and indirectly benefit the whole Institution. I feel this would be Most pleasing to Srila Prabhupada.
You wrote:
… they think they are on some kind of divine mission to protect or defend their ideology of institutional worship.
I wrote:
You don’t seem to get the point that what is being worshiped by many is the Instructions of the Bona fide Spiritual Master not the Institution per se. There are many motivations of persons’ inside an institution or out. That is not the point. Just because someone has followed the Spiritual Master’s order to stay and serve within his Society does not make one automatically a “worshiper of an Institution”. You seem to always be generalizing.
Looks like you have an agenda for all; to give up following Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to stay and serve within Iskcon.
Your agenda is what we are trying to defend and protect faithful devotees from doing; that would not at all be pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. Defending and protecting Iskcon is a service to Srila Prabhupada and his Instructions.
Then you preach it doesn’t matter anyway because Srila Prabhupada doesn’t know what’s going on here and even if he did, he cannot do anything to help us anyway. This is not the vision or teachings of the Founder and Saint.
You wrote:
…they are battling people who are promoting the philosophical vision of the founders and saints of the institutions they think they are defending.
I wrote:
Sorry, your speculative presentations are not always in line with Guru, sadhu and sastra. You are choosing not to present things according to Srila Prabhupada’s vision. You are rationalizing and twisting away some of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and instructions. I trust Srila Prabhupada’s vision over your Maui Varnasrama vision any day. They are drastically different. You think you understand more than Srila Prabhupada. We should strictly follow the previous Nitya Siddha Acaryas. That is the safe and assured way. I thought Rocan of all people would understand that.
Instead their singin' from the same bhajana book....
ys
bb dasPosted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/08/2005 04:06 AM PST
Rocan Prabhu has said:
"While Shiva dasa's blog submissions are more scholarly, he and I are singing from the same bhajan book."
But Prabhu if you consider Srila Prabhupada the "Sampradaya Acarya" then I don't understand how you can limit him, as Shiva das does, by claiming that it is no longer possible for him to be actively involved with his followers on this planet. I dare say there are thousands of sincere souls who would testify that this idea is completely false, because they have had direct experience of Srila Prabhupada's involvement in their lives since 1977.
I was giving a class not long ago in Minsk, Belarus, and asked the assembled devotees, none of who had ever meet Srila Prabhupada personally, if any of them had had dreams where Srila Prabhupada appeared. There were about 200 devotees in the class and around half of them raised their hands.
I ask one boy what his dream was. He said he had been initiated by Harikesa and after he fell down the boy was thinking how could he continue with this process as he naturally considered Harikesa to be so much more advanced then he was. So he was feeling very hopeless.
In that mood he took rest. Srila Prabhupada came to him and spoke strongly. "Why you say hopeless? Don't you know that I am here?" He said that then his sleep broke and he was feeling wide awake and spiritually rejuvinated to continue the process.
I also have had such kind of dreams which have been vital to my Krishna consciousness. We know that Srila Prabhupada also was repeated instructed by his Guru Maharaja in dreams to take sannyas.
This idea that Srila Prabhupada is busy in Krishna Loka and no longer is concerned or involved with the society that he created with such effort is bogus.
Ys TSPosted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 09:00 PM PST
Mark you have not offended me one bit.
Like I said, try and see Krishna controlling everyone and everything, if people can do that then they cannot take offense because they see Krishna in control of whatever anyones says or does or what you or I say or do. If you can see like that then how can you take offense? It is simply a matter of education on what reality is and what reality isn't.
Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.24
Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
Bhagavad Gita 3.27
The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature.
PURPORT
Two persons, one in Krsna consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Krsna. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Krsna, in Krsna consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hrsikesa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Krsna.
My critque of you or anyone is not because I am offended or because I want to cause them harm. I say what I say because I mean to educate, if devotees take it personally I assure you it is not meant as anything but as helpful even if it may bruise an ego here or there. All I can offer devotees is to try and be Krishna conscious, always remember Krishna and never forget Krishna and everything will be understood through detachment. There is one controller, I am just a puppet, not the puppetmaster.
As for your critique of my website I don't really care if people accept it as relevant to their lives or not. Accept or reject, I make no demands on people to accept what I have written. Krishna is controlling what you think and what anyone else thinks about everything and anything, all I can do is what I do and leave the result to the Lord.Posted by Mark @ 12/07/2005 07:04 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
I offer you my obeisances.
I am a person. Criticize me or my ideas in a non constructive way, either directly or by innuendo, and I will personally respond as best I can. No offense meant or taken.
Please know that I do appreciate your efforts, and do not level criticism at your plans without having something to offer to back it up. Unfortunately, because of my crude behavior, you are not totally receptive to my words.
A small example. you said...
"I do not share the same opinion of as you as to the nature of all of the worlds elites."
I said actually...
"They are generally spoiled pampered athiests etc..."
Meaning if that is your main pool of candidates, I believe you are limiting your mission, and in for a rough ride. Their power is based on a house of cards built by oppresion and unsound ecological policies, and their fiat money quickly loosing any real value.
And I am unsure how it happened this way, but I have seen additional instructions from Srila Prabhupada explaining some fine details about his own plan of instituting Varnashrma Dharma within Iskcon, that I did not find on your website. As well as some procedures layed out by Bhakti-Vinode Thakura regarding the vedic method the elders of a community should undertake to determine varna of a child which are very comprehensive. Also some of my own insights from introspection. All of which I would hope you would be happy to receive.
Regarding my level of advancement.
I certainly do believe it is my duty to implement a solution where I see a problem if I have the skills. In attempting to set up legal avenues to wrest illegal power from envious persons and reclaim properties of Sri Chaitanya's Sankirtana Movement, and to win people's assistance in the matter, if in some way that can be construed as claiming a level of advancement, well, I am more advanced than an incorrigible envious rascal. No false humility on that point.
And if someone were to disagree with this course of action, I would have to consider them an apologist of the envious rascals, and if someone deems me more advanced then such persons, I would again agree but I don't do or write about these matters seeking that status. Again I have somehow not earned much credit with you for you perceive this as my motivation.
My flaw is that I have blundered and offended you, and really wish our efforts could complement one another. Perhaps our ego's are being worn smooth enough that the friction will be soon be musical.
Please forgive me, and consider me an ally?
aspiring to serve Srila Prabhupada and the Vaisnavas,
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 05:23 PM PST
Mark don't take criticims personally from me because it isn't meant to be. As far as my ideas as I have layed them out at my site I have given 2 propositions. These are my general ideas of how to implement varnashrama in Iskcon at http://varnashrama-maui.com/page3.html
And the rest of the site is about a preaching project to try and reach the worlds elites by giving the vaisnava community a place to associate amongst themselves free from the institutional restraints and useless power trips of the type we see in certain posts on this blog. I do not share the same opinion of as you as to the nature of all of the worlds elites. Maybe there are certain very powerful people who might possibly be as you describe to some degree or another, but I don't believe most of the worlds elite class of people are like that. Either way the mission and mercy of Sri Gaura Nitai is often delivered to the most fallen as in the case of Jagai and Madhai. I don't care if people don't approve.
As far as this statement of yours:It is not lost on me that you continually intimate that you are highly advanced and perhaps even qualified to be Acharya and pull something like that off.
You said you were moved by Rocana Dasa's post. You failed to mention how you relate to the part where he questioned.
"Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?"
I seek no following and would in fact reject one. But at the same time when duty calls if you feel you have something to offer which can help others on the path to Krishna then you have to disregard false humility in the face of a lack of qualified leadership to accomplish what needs to be done. Try and understand how Krishna is controlling everything and everyone.
In fact aren't you doing what you seem to find fault in me for doing? You are on a mission to convince everyone that your realization and authority to "overthrow" Iskcon leadership is your duty. In doing that you seek to be seen as more advanced then everyone who disagrees with you is it not?Posted by Anon @ 12/07/2005 02:31 PM PST
Shiva das: The new God of SS, huh? Why do you charaterize BB das and those who oppose these silly ravings as "demagogues?" Shame, shame on you and Rocana das in ISKCON's 40th anniversary year. SS is still a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Posted by Mark @ 12/07/2005 02:02 PM PST
Dear Shiva Das,
I understand that you have initiated a project called Maui Varnashrama. I have read your mission statement.
I am not sure which spiritual master's vision of Daiva Varnashrma-Dharma you are attempting to implement. It does not match the instructions and descriptions of how such a society would initiate and then operate of any Acharya I am aquainted with.
While I wish you well, I am not sure that the world elites who luxuriate in Maui and places like it fall into the category of people who are hankering for God realization.
They are neither wise, nor genuinely curious, neither in financial distress, or in general dispair or destitution.
They are generally spoiled pampered athiests who on the whole are interested purely in increasing sense-gratification outside of any need of pious regulation. They generally spawn from rich illuminati-bloodline families or their favored servants, and I have a suspicion you know this already in great detail.
It is not lost on me that you continually intimate that you are highly advanced and perhaps even qualified to be Acharya and pull something like that off.
You said you were moved by Rocana Dasa's post. You failed to mention how you relate to the part where he questioned.
"Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?"
I confront you like this because I see no other way to get your attention, and see you as a potential teammate, and that you have viewed me quite less than such I just attribute to a glitch in the matrix.
Hare Krishna
in service
MarkPosted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 01:39 PM PST
bb das:
Do you know the meaning of the word demagogue? Let me enlighten you if you do not. From en.Wiktionary.org
NOUN
1. an orator or leader who gains favor by exciting the passions and prejudices of the audience
From P. Carpenter a historian from his article 'What Qualifies as Demagoguery?'
A more useful definition of demagoguery arises from the interdisciplinary application of rhetorical studies, which here takes on the form of logical-fallacy analysis, which itself reduces to two inseparably linked constituents: simplicity of message content and its wholly unilateral point-of-view presentation. For greater ease of expression we shall hereafter refer to these constituents as “one-sided simplicity,” or alternatively, simply as unidimensionality. And it is this rhetorical quality (in addition to scapegoatism, addressed shortly) that is consistently identifiable in the history of American demagoguery and permits an unconditional point of reference for any given demagogic practitioner. Simplicity of message content and a one-sided presentation of that message--that is, one that systematically excludes competing arguments and differing points of view--are, to borrow from sociologist Sigmund Neumann, “The Steadfast Rules of the Demagogue.” His quality of oration has varied historically, his degree of “populist” commitment has waxed and waned, his level of dedication to principle has differed--but without fail the demagogue has exercised unidimensionality.
He employs a gamut of logical fallacies to accomplish the common goal of all politicians: power and influence, whether merely for power’s sake or as a means to realize some given idealistic goal. Naturally he appeals to “the crowd” (ad populum exhortations)--nothing unique in itself, especially in a democratic forum--but commonly adds the logical fallacies of appeals to pity (argumentum ad misericordiam); appeals to reverence (argumentum ad verecundium); appeals to personality (argumentum ad hominem); and an assortment of other rhetorical devices. Suffice it to say that the term of “unidimensionality” is one that derives from the scholarly observations of diverse logicians of rhetoric. Professor S. Morris Engel of York University, for example, had a similar concept of unidimensionality in mind when he discussed the rhetorical problem of argumentation “omissions”: “Not all such omissions are innocent, or done for the sake of literary elegance or brevity.... More turns on them--the opportunity for gain, influence, deception--and hence a greater effort is made to hide the assumptions on which the argument rests.” (Again, the argument need not be an expressly “false” one. As stated above, it is more a matter of presentation.)
University of Winnipeg philosophy professor and argumentation-analyst Douglas Walton had much the same in mind when he reflected on rhetorical “fairmindedness.” Its demagogic opposite--unidimensionality--is characterized by the abdication of “critical doubt,” “‘due consideration’ to criticisms or arguments from an opposed viewpoint” and “desist[ance] from judging another viewpoint before fully understanding it.” In One-Sided Arguments: A Dialectical Analysis of Bias, Walton succinctly stated his thesis in writing “there is supposed to be a genuine exchange of views,” which was another way of saying what Aristotle posited more than two-thousand years ago: that “rhetoric is the counterpart of dialectic.” Put simply, unidimensionality denies the synthetic benefit of the dialectic and therefore the necessary deliberative nature of an engaged, democratic society.
Indigenous to the demagogue’s extensive use of unidimensionality has been the common practice of scapegoating: the hostile targeting of select groups for condemnation and blame. Important to note is that these groups may be identified by ethnicity, race, or religion, of course, but just as easily by political ideology. Akin to the notional convenience of scapegoats is the historiographical concept of the “Other”: those Americans, as Southern historian Sheldon Hackney described them, standing “in opposition to a presumed American norm.” As such, they are easy targets. It is they who are responsible for the problems of crime or unemployment, for instance; or they may be responsible for cultural upheavals that seemingly threaten traditional values, or even for America’s sagging international standing, if that is the case. The “Other” must be to blame for these conditions, for “we”—the true Americans--continue to uphold all that is good and socially manageable.Posted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 01:18 PM PST
Rocana Prabhu that was a moving post.
For me the debate that has unwound has highlighted the us versus them mentality present in people who feel the institution is some kind of divine personage and more deserving of respect then the vaisnavas in general. Neophytes feel free to throw down in some kind of grudge match because they think they are on some kind of divine mission to protect or defend their ideology of institutional worship.
Because they see themselves as defenders of the truth while still in the neophyte stage, and also because they think that those who disagree with them over their vision of institutional worship are something to be defended against come hell or high water, they then end up in the peculiar position of trying to make a show of philosophical one upmanship in their battle against their perceived enemy without realizing that they are battling people who are promoting the philosophical vision of the founders and saints of the institutions they think they are defending.
So what ends up happening is that because they are neophytes they don't see that. They end up arguing against the philosophy propunded by the founders and saints within the tradition of the institution they claim to want to defend "from attack" due to their limited knowledge of that philosophy the institution is supposed to represent. In effect they are battling against what the institution is supposed to represent in the name of defending the institution.
I agree that the institution of Iskcon is worthy of defending. But without sufficient education on the precepts or philosophical doctrine which the institution is supposed to represent, then when faced with someone who argues for those precepts the person who is unacquainted with those precepts will see them as deviations to be defended against due to his limited fund of knowledge. Then those persons may go on some kind of quixotic quest tilting at imaginary demons while the real battle to be faced is their own battle against ignorance and ego.Posted by bbdas @ 12/07/2005 12:59 PM PST
Rochana Prabhu,
Are you singing from the same bhajana book which says that Srila Prabhupada is not conscious or aware of the prayers and service being offered to him?
and... What about all of the quotes of Srila Prabhupad's instructions (to his disciples and followers)to not leave his Iskcon Institution?
Try to be objective and honest.
How do you not clearly hear what those instructions are?
ys
bb dasPosted by Mark @ 12/07/2005 11:35 AM PST
Dear Rocana Dasa,
please accept my respectful obeisances.
In your latest post you wrote,
"My comprehension is that the original Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, as they appeared during the lila periods of the most recent Sampradaya Acaryas, were modern manifestations of Lord Caitanya’s eternal Sankirtan Movement. Today, we have the perverted reflections."
Then, after elaborating upon many of the ways in which the perversions occured, you said,
"Just who, and in our circumstance what “institution”, is most purely representing our Sampradaya Acaryas is another contentious issue."
I contend that the most recent Sampradaya Acharya left quite detailed instructions for all of us admittedly "Sadhana Bhaktas".
In sum they were to institute Daiva Varnashrama Dharma (a.k.a. ISKCON). This was to be our sadhana which would gracefully relieve us of our material desires in order that we progress to the next stages of bhakti.
If as you say all that is left is a perverted reflection of ISKCON,
Do you contend that those instructions regarding Srila Prabhupada's plan are null and void because it was a failure?
Or do you believe with faith, we will be empowered to institute his plans regardless of the mess that has been made by the less apt and or sincere?
Thank you for your consideration.
Hare Krishna
y.s.
MarkPosted by Rocana dasa @ 12/07/2005 10:47 AM PST
The conversation that has unfolded in this Sun Blog over the last few weeks is both fascinating and informative. From a journalistic viewpoint, it's been a valuable opportunity for the readers to gain some insight into different points of view present on the Vaisnava landscape.
While Shiva dasa's blog submissions are more scholarly, he and I are singing from the same bhajan book. I really appreciated his posting from the article on Organized Religion by Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati. This particular revelation is straight from Vaikuntha. Studying it has greatly motivated me by focusing my understanding of Srila Prabhupada as a Sampradaya Acaraya. My comprehension is that the original Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON, as they appeared during the lila periods of the most recent Sampradaya Acaryas, were modern manifestations of Lord Caitanya’s eternal Sankirtan Movement. Today, we have the perverted reflections.
Born again Christians repeatedly quote the phrase, “only through Christ can the truth [God) be known”. All nitya-siddha, Shaktavesa Avatars and direct incarnations of Godhead preach in this manner. According to time, place and circumstance they are indeed the only way. When Srila Prabhupada was performing his ISKCON lila pastimes, it was the very best spiritual course for everyone on the planet because it was a manifestation of Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan Movement. Devotees imagining themselves to be members of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya should have recognized Srila Prabhupada to be a Sampradaya Acarya and as such, they should have rushed to participate in ISKCON, his preaching mission. Many of Srila Prabhupada’s direct followers joined and departed even before his lila wound itself up. To varying degrees, Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers helped, and some even tried to hinder the mission. As nitya-siddha Sampradaya Acaryas, our Srila Prabhupada and His Spiritual Master were of the same mind, mood, and mission as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. During the last one hundred and fifty years, the eternal Sankirtan Movement has become re-manifest, as foretold by the Yuga Avatar himself.
The names "Gaudiya Matha" and "ISKCON" were essentially the practical preaching tools utilized by these Sampradaya Acaryas. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had his own organization, which wasn’t inherited by his divine son. The legal entities established by these contemporary Sampradaya Acaryas were necessary organizational legal interfaces with the culture and time in which they appeared. They all are eternal associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, opening the floodgates of the Sankirtan Movement.
As Shiva dasa so nicely stated, we cannot limit the Supreme Personality of Godhead in any way or by any means. All efforts to limit the Lord are an indication of Mundane Religiosity taking hold. This religious phenomenon takes hold after the pastimes of the Sampradaya Acaryas disappear from sight. Even during the lila periods, neophytes are making arrangements to deviate from the course. At the very moment these transcendental personalities wind-up their lila, as is the case with Krsna lila, the interpersonal dynamics immediately change throughout the spiritual family.
We observe this phenomenal transformation on many mundane levels. Families, tribes, communities, countries, from time immemorial have experienced this truth when their leaders die. Our foundational sastras, Caitanya-caritamrta, Srimad Bhagavatam, what to speak of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, contain numerous accounts of the earth-shattering ramifications directly resulting from the disappearance of exalted, divine personalities. Monarchs throughout history have seen it as a principle duty to produce a qualified heir to the throne so their efforts to provide peace, prosperity and stability throughout the kingdom will hopefully continue after their death. This legacy mindset found within the material world is but a perverted reflection of what takes place on the topmost level of existence. In Lord Krsna’s lila, he orchestrated the mass suicide of his entire dynasty in Dwarka so as to prevent the evitable disturbance resulting from quarreling over who is Lord Sri Krsna's rightful inheritor.
Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati didn’t have offspring. Our Srila Prabhupada completely disinherited his children, saying he left his family because they weren't devotees. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura recognized his son to be a nitya-siddha sent by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Regardless, his other spiritually-oriented son, Lalita prasada, contested and fought with his brother. To this very day, a few members of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON have sided with the Lalita Prasada group. So, why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It is just history repeating itself. As individual non-realized devotees, there is nothing we can do to prevent it from happening. As struggling, sincere followers of our Sampradaya Acaryas, we have to make the best of a bad bargain. Can we all just agree as self-confessed, fallen conditioned souls that we are mere sadhana-bhaktas at best?
The world is presently devoid of the manifest presence of a Shaktavesa Avatar, as far as I can tell. Still, we have to count our blessings. We have been mercifully blessed with ample pure knowledge in the form of the writings/teachings of the succession of three Sampradaya Acaryas. All of them presented our siddhanta directly in the English language. All three Sampradaya Acaryas were born in the Land of Bharata-varsha, India. As such, they all spoke and preached in many indigenous languages, yet they mercifully presented the philosophy for us in English. I could go on listing the many blessing we have obtained. Considering that few of us (if any) have any prior past life qualifications, what do we have to complain about? Naturally we are disagreeing on some traditional areas of our siddhanta that have been debated since time immemorial, such as guru-tattva. Just who, and in our circumstance what “institution”, is most purely representing our Sampradaya Acaryas is another contentious issue. But the very fact that we are all more inclined to spend our time discussing these matters rather than so many mundane topics is proof positive of the power and potency of these teachings in comparison to any and all other mental distractions.
It gives me the greatest pleasure to correspond in this way with all you rare souls. Rarer still is the fact that we can and will participate in such discussions despite our predictably different viewpoints. I believe that Srila Prabhupada would be pleased that we are acting in this manner rather than restricting our intellectual input and output to only our own “club members”.Posted by bb das @ 12/07/2005 06:39 AM PST
Siva in your world it's all one.
Here is how Vaisnava devotees pray.
CC Antya Lila 2.2
vande 'ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaisnavams ca sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam sri-radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-visakhanvitams ca
TRANSLATION
I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master and of all the other preceptors on the path of devotional service. I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaisnavas and unto the six Gosvamis, including Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and their associates. I offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Advaita Acarya Prabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and all His devotees, headed by Srivasa Thakura. I then offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, Srimati Radharani and all the gopis, headed by Lalita and Visakha.Posted by shiva das @ 12/07/2005 04:39 AM PST
bb das you don't seem to be well educated on Gaudiya siddhanta. Let's try again.
Lalita and Visakha are not nitya siddha devotees. They are personal expansions of Sri Radhika i.e non different then Sri Radhika, as already quoted from Srila PrabhupadaSuch expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself
Lalita and Visakha are "as good as Krsna Himself". Why? They are personal expansions of Sri Radha who is identical to Sri Krishna.As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja.
From Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma:Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words:
"The Absolute Truth is one. Still, by His inconceivable potency He is manifested in four ways: 1. svarupa (His original form), 2. tad-rupa-vaibhava (His incarnations), 3. jiva (the individual spirit souls), and 4. pradhana (the material energy). These four features are like: 1. the interior of the sun planet, 2. the sun's surface, 3. the sunlight, and 4. the reflection of the sun."
Lalita and Visakha are incarnations of Sri Radha who is identical to Sri Krishna, they are not jiva tattva, they are Visnu Tattva.
In Krsna Sandarbha Jiva Goswami says there are two types of expansions of The Supreme Lord:This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:
The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.
They are personal expansions of Sri Radha in the way that Balarama is a personal expansion of Sri Krishna.
From Jiva Goswami's Krishna Sandarbha 188.1:I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa.
In this verse the word 'ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih' means 'full of the mellows of pure love'. She expands into many forms, and the blissful Supreme Personality of Godhead, who desires to enjoy Her as a lover, also expands into many forms.
They are all Svamsa expansions or Visnu Tattva expansions of the Lord.All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms.
So when you mention Lalita and Visakha and Ramananda Raya and Svarupa Damodara you should understand that they are not different from Sri Krishna.
So your question about how they can be covered over by Yogamaya in Vraja but also be in Sri Gaura lila is due to your not understanding that they are never under Yogamaya in the same sense that jivas are under Yogamaya because they are personal expansions of the Supreme Lord.
Even Krishna Himself works under Yogamaya:
From Adi lilaThe influence of Yogamaya will inspire the gopis with the sentiment that I am their paramour. Neither the gopis nor I shall notice that Yogamaya is governing our pastimes, for our minds will be completely entranced by one another's beauty and qualities. Our passionate desire will unite us even at the expense of moral and religious duties. Destiny will sometimes bring us together and sometimes keep us apart. I shall taste the essence of all these rasas, and through them I shall favor all the devotees
When Krishna uses yogamaya for Himself it is different then how He uses Yogamaya for the jivas. The jivas are not allowed to know that Sri Sri Radha Krishna and their expansions are all the Supreme Lord in various manifestations, as already explained in previous verses and purports. When Krishna uses Yogamaya on Himself it is to create a mood for himself. Srila Prabhupada explains in his purport:In the spiritual loving sentiment induced by the yogamaya potency, both Lord Sri Krsna and the damsels of Vraja forget themselves in spiritual rapture. By the influence of such forgetfulness, the attractive beauty of the gopis plays a prominent part in the transcendental satisfaction of the Lord, who has nothing to do with mundane sex. Because spiritual love of Godhead is above everything mundane, the gopis superficially seem to transgress the codes of mundane morality. This perpetually puzzles mundane moralists. Therefore yogamaya acts to cover the Lord and His pastimes from the eyes of mundaners, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.25), where the Lord says that He reserves the right of not being exposed to everyone.
Krishna uses yogamaya on Himself to create a mood of spiritual rapture, whereas he uses yogamaya on the jivas to keep them ignorant of the fact that they are playing with God. We should understand that not all gopis, not all queens, and not all goddesses of fortune are personal expansions of Sri Sri Radha Krishna. Only the jivas are covered over by yogamaya in order to keep them unaware of the true nature of the Personalities of Godhead who are at play in Krishna Lila.
If you can't understand any of this see the last part of that last purport.
As for your repetition of your other question I have already answered, yet you seem to neglect anything that doesn't fit into your preconceived vision of Gaudiya siddhanta. Here it is again:From Jiva Goswami's Krishna Sandarbha 155.6:
Lord Krsna's ability to be manifested in many places simultaneously and perform many different activities at the same time by His mystic potency is not shared by anyone else. No yogi or sage can perform such wonderful activities
So what you are saying and what I guess Trivikrama Maharaja is saying is against what Srila Jiva Goswami is saying. You guys think that Srila Prabhupada can be in Krishna lila as well as inside the heart of all of his disciples or I guess maybe anyone who considers themselves to be his disciples and that he hears all their prayers and can then act using some mystic potency to fullfil the deisres of those many disciples in some form or another. Jiva Goswami says no. I say no. You guys say yes.
This is the last time I respond to these questions on this topic, umkay? Either you get it or you don't, it's in Krishna's hands.Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/07/2005 03:00 AM PST
Letter 12-27-74
Brahmananda Swami seemed to think that you need more men there. His telegram reads, "Trivikrama alone, more men required urgently.'' I do not understand what he means by alone. What is this alone? Vaisnava is never alone. When I first came to the United States I was seemingly alone for one year. But I never felt alone. I always felt the presence of my Guru Maharaja. Myself, I was cooking, I was printing books, I was selling books, everything seemingly alone. But I did not lose my determination. Actually you should know this, you are never alone.Posted by bb das @ 12/07/2005 02:24 AM PST
Siva,
The point is that the Eternal Associates (nitya-siddhas) are conscious and present simultaneously. You missed the point again!
You could not quote according to Guru, sadhu and sastra on any of my questions to you in reference to your mental speculative statements.
Still waiting…….?
Again for your reference;
How is it that Lalita and Vishaka Sakhis are present in the forms of Svarupa Damodar and Ramananda Raya respectively and at the SAME TIME covered by yoga maya in Vraja lila in Goloka Vrndavana?
Can you show anywhere, acording to Guru, sadhu and sastra that the Bona fide Spiritual Master is not conscious of his disciples when he is not physically manifested?
If the previous acaryas are not conscious and responsive to us, why would Srila Prabhupada or any other Vaisnava offer continued prayers to Srila Rupa and Srila Jiva Goswamis', for example?
Why would we pray at the samadhis of the previous acaryas if they are not conscious and responsive to our sincere prayers?
Let everyone see what a speculator you really are.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 09:32 PM PST
bbb das:
As for Lalita and Visakha, they are personal expansions of Srimati Radharani, they are not jivas.tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade
Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.
PURPORT
As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary (completely identical) portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.
The plenary expansions of Krsna's personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha's expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are vaibhava-vilasa, and the queens are vaibhava-prakasa of Radharani. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personai form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani.
As for your other point, you can pray to whomever you want, I have no problem with you doing that.Posted by bb das @ 12/06/2005 08:59 PM PST
Siva,
You wrote:
”So if Srila Prabhupada is with Sri Sri Radha Gopinath, I guarantee he doesn't know who they really are, and he certainly doesn't know anything about us. He is enjoying Krishna lila without any other concerns.”
Can you show anywhere, acording to Guru, sadhu and sastra that the Bona fide Spiritual Master is not conscious of his disciples when he is not physically manifested? I don’t care a fig about Your guarantee.
Your speculating Prabhuji.
If the previous acaryas are not conscious and responsive to us, why would Srila Prabhupada or any other Vaisnava offer continued prayers to Srila Rupa and Srila Jiva Goswamis', for example?
Why would we pray at the samadhis of the previous acaryas if they are not conscious and responsive to our sincere prayers?
Back up your statements.
also,
How is it that Lalita and Vishaka Sakhis are present in the forms of Svarupa Damodar and Ramananda Raya respectively and at the same time covered by yoga maya in Vraja lila in Goloka Vrndavana?
You see Prabhuji, you are trying to use mundane logic and argument to understand that which is inconceivable to one in material consciousness.
You are just speculating on the material mental platform. You can only understand these subjects when you surrender to a bona fide sad guru, authorized by parampara and hear from him.
Ya ho bhagavata pada vaisnava stane ekanta asraya kara caitanya carane
"If you want to understand Srimad Bhagavatam you MUST approach and surrender to a self realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." cc antya 5.131
Otherwise, you will continue to just speculate, mislead and make offense.
ys
bb dasPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 08:07 PM PST
Trivikrama Maharaja
If you would have quoted the entire paragraph we would see this:
"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places, similarly the spiritual master also can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay monitoring."Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else's.
There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forrns to teach you, me and all others.
In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:
tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Tmth.''
Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly.
"Although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master. Vibration--what we have heard from the spiritual master--that is living." (Lecture, January 13, 1969, Los Angeles)
“…the disciple and spiritual master are never separated, because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple, as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words).” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.47, Purport)750408mw.may Conversations
Jayadvaita: ...they know everything and they're perfect in everything. But sometimes, from our material viewpoint, we see some discrepancies. Just like we think that...
Prabhupada: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies.
Jayadvaita: So we should think that we have the defect.
Prabhupada: Yes. Acarya is explained, bhakti-samsanah: "One who's preaching the cult of devotional service, he's acarya." Then why should you find any discrepancy?
Jayadvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then...
Jayadvaita: ...an imperfection.
Prabhupada: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.
Jayadvaita: And that is the perfection.
Prabhupada: That is the perfection. Hare Krsna.
Jayadvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is?
Prabhupada: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That's all
So if you find sometimes that Srila Prabhupada says something different then it is my understanding that he is trying to help a neophyte to have faith and help them in their devotional life.Posted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 07:32 PM PST
So before anyone asks about why throughout the Bhagavatam and the Gita there are devotees in Krishna lila who are speaking about Krishna as the Supreme Lord, and how does that fit into the previous words of the Bhagavatam and Srila Prabhupada where we are told that the devotees in Krishna lila are kept in ignorance of Krishna's true identity, I will try and explain this seeming contradiction.
The pastimes described in sastra are meant for the purpose of Sri Krishna's descent into the mundane world.
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.
So the pastimes that Sri Krishna performs when He descends is not really different in essence from the eternal pastimes in Goloka, but there is some difference due to the purpose of the respective pastimes and the nature of the mundane world (birth, death, etc). So when we are told that the devotees in Krishna lila are not aware of Sri Krishna being the Supreme Lord and then we hear some prayer or conversation in sastra where they do appear to understand, that can be understood as being part of the purpose of Sri Krishna's descent into the mundane world, ie. to enlighten us by those conversations and prayers etc. In Goloka no such purpose is there so there is no revelatory philosophical conversations about the nature of Sri Krishna being the absolute truth.
Here is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta explaining from Sri Brahma Samhita, it is very deep so don't feel dumb if it is over your head. It is really only fully understandable through realization as is mentioned in the following purport:Krishna is ever manifest in His beauty with His infinite pastimes in Goloka. Sometimes the variant manifestation of those pastimes becomes visible on the mundane plane. Sri Hari, the Supreme Lord, also manifests His pastimes of birth, etc., accompanied by all His paraphernalia. The divine sportive potency fills the hearts of His paraphernalia with appropriate spiritual sentiments in conformity with the will of Krishna. Those pastimes that manifest themselves on the mundane plane, are His visible pastimes. All those very pastimes exist in their nonvisible form in Goloka beyond the ken of mundane knowledge.
In His visible pastimes Krishna sojourns in Gokula, Mathura and Dvaraka. Those pastimes that are nonvisible in those three places, are visible in their spiritual sites of Vrindavana.
From the conclusions just stated it is clear that there is no distinction between the visible and nonvisible pastimes. The apostle Jiva Gosvami in his commentary on this sloka as well as in the gloss of Ujjvala-nilamani and in Krishna-sandarbha remarks that:
"the visible pastimes of Krishna are the creation of His cit (spiritual) potency. Being in conjunction with the reference to mundane function they exhibit certain features which seem to be true by the influence of the limiting potency (Maya); but these cannot exist in the transcendental reality. The destruction of demons, illicit paramourship, birth, etc., are examples of this peculiarity. The gopis are the extensions of the ecstatic energy of Krishna, and so are exceptionally His own. How can there be illicit connection in their case? The illicit mistress-ship of the gopis found in His visible pastime, is but the mundane reflection of the transcendental reality."
The hidden meaning underlying the words of Sri Jiva Gosvami, when it is made explicit, will leave no doubt in the minds of the readers. Sri Jiva Gosvami is our preacher of transcendental truth. So he is always under the influence of Sri Rupa and Sanatana. Moreover in the pastimes of Krishna Sri Jiva is one of the manjaris. So he is conversant with all transcendental realities.
There are some who, being unable to understand the drift of his statements, give meanings of their own invention and indulge in useless controversies. Sri Rupa and Sanatana say that there is no real and essential distinction between the lilas visible and nonvisible, the only distinction lies in this that one is manifest in the mundane sphere whereas the other is not so. In the supermundane manifestation there is absolute purity in the seer and the seen. A particularly fortunate person when he is favored by Krishna, can shake off worldly shackles and connections, enter the transcendental region after attaining the realized taste of the varieties of rasa that is available during the period of novitiate. Only such a person can have a view and taste of the perfect and absolutely pure lila of Goloka. Such receptive natures are rarely to be found. He, who exists in the mundane sphere, can also realize the taste of cid-rasa by the grace of Krishna by being enabled to attain the realized state of service. Such a person can have a view of the pastimes of Goloka manifested in the mundane lila of Gokula. There is certainly a difference between these two classes of eligible seekers of the truth. Until one attains the perfectly transcendental stage he must be hampered by his lingering limitations, in his vision of the pastimes of Goloka. Again, the vision of the transcendental reality varies according to the degree of self-realization. The vision of Goloka must also vary accordingly.
There is more to his purport and you can read it at http://vedabase.net/bs/5/37/en1Posted by Trivikrama Swami @ 12/06/2005 07:14 PM PST
What about this one Sivaji
In the absolute world there is no distinction as me, or he, and I. Krishna and His representative is the same. Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places. Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple wants.
Letter 28 May '68 to MalatiPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 01:08 PM PST
Dear Hare Krsna:
From Jiva Goswami's Krishna Sandarbha 155.6:
Lord Krsna's ability to be manifested in many places simultaneously and perform many different activities at the same time by His mystic potency is not shared by anyone else. No yogi or sage can perform such wonderful activitiesPosted by shiva das @ 12/06/2005 01:04 PM PST
bb das you wrote:
Siva, once again you show that you do not have unflinching faith and a proper understanding of Vaisnava tattva. Whatever the Pure Vaisnava wants Krsna fulfills his desire. It is Prabhupada’s desire and statement that his movement Iskcon will go on for Ten Thousand Years. How can that statement be true unless it is Prabhupada’s desire and how could one doubt that Krsna will fulfill the desires of his Most Pure Empowered Sakti-Avesa and dear most intimate associate.
Srila Prabhupada said that since the start of Kali Yuga that after 15 thousand years the age of Kali will become too "gloomy" for Krishna consciousness. That since now we are 5,000 years into Kali Yuga that there are 10,000 years left for the Krishna consciousness movement. He has stated that it is foretold that that for 10,000 years more the Krishna consciousness movement will continue " provided we keep it uncontaminated".
Some quotesSrimad Bhagavatam 8.5.23
When Krsna appeared, He gave His orders, and when Krsna Himself appeared as a devotee, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He showed us the path by which to cross the ocean of Kali-yuga. That is the path of the Hare Krsna movement. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtana movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kuruksetra, at which Bhagavad-gita was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.
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Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...
Prabhupada: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.
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Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they're...They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Krsna to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase.That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Krsna consciousness movement will increase. Yes.
Syamasundara: Ten thousand years.
Prabhupada: Within ten thousand years, if they become Krsna conscious, then life is successful.After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand.
So Srila Prabhupada was writing in his purport to the Srimad Bhagavatam about how it has been predicted that that the sankirtan movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu will go for 10,000 years from the birth of Sri Caitanya. I don't think Iskcon existed back then.
Then you wrote:Such Pure Devotees are fully conscious and responsible for their Movements and disciples and followers eternally. Otherwise, why pray to Bhaktivinoda Thakura if he is only capable of performing one service at a time in Goloka Vrndavana. Can he hear you if you're sincere and purified? Can he shower mercy and blessings and inspire us with realization? It’s a question of faith and devotion Siva
I don't think it's only a matter of faith and devotion. I think it's a matter of bogus philosophy being accepted by people who don't know what they are talking about...like the above from you.
Srila Prabhupada is not "fully conscious" of his movement and his disciples. No jiva has that power. If Srila Prabhupada is in Krishna Lila he will only know what is going on in Vraja and he won't even know that Radha and Krishna are who they really are. In Krishna lila Yogamaya covers over the devotees so that they cannot understand who Radha and Krishna really are. Sometimes they think Krishna might posssibly be an avatar because it was predicted that he may be, but Yogamaya quickly covers over those thoughts and they forget and see Krishna as only their son, friend, or lover. They are not allowed to even know their true situation, what to speak of knowing what is going on in Kali Yuga on planet earth in Cleveland, Ohio.Srimad Bhagavatam 10.7.10
na te sraddadhire gopa
bala-bhasitam ity uta
aprameyam balam tasya
balakasya na te viduh
The assembled gopis and gopas, unaware that Krsna is always unlimited, could not believe that baby Krsna had such inconceivable power. They could not believe the statements of the children, and therefore they neglected these statements as being childish talk.
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Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 7.10.48
...the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His original form as Krsna was always living with the Pandavas. Although the Pandavas, because of the influence of Krsna's yogamaya, could not think of their fortunate position, every saintly person, including the great sage Narada, could understand it, and therefore they constantly visited Maharaja Yudhisthira.
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Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.30
grhnita yad yad upabandham amusya mata
sulbam sutasya na tu tat tad amusya mati
yaj jrmbhato 'sya vadane bhuvanani gopi
samviksya sankita-manah pratibodhitasit
When the cowherd woman [Krsna's foster mother, Yasoda] was trying to tie the hands of her son with ropes, she found the rope to be always insufficient in length, and when she finally gave up, Lord Krsna, by and by, opened His mouth, wherein the mother found all the universes situated. Seeing this, she was doubtful in her mind, but she was convinced in a different manner of the mystic nature of her son.
PURPORT
One day Lord Krsna as the naughty child disturbed His mother Yasoda, and she began to tie up the child with ropes just to punish Him. But no matter how much rope she used, she found it always insufficient. Thus she became fatigued, but in the meantime the Lord opened His mouth, and the affectionate mother saw within the mouth of her son all the universes situated together. The mother was astonished, but out of her deep affection for Krsna she thought that the Almighty Godhead Narayana had kindly looked after her son just to protect Him from all the continuous calamities happening to Him. Because of her deep affection for Krsna, she could never think that her very son was Narayana, the Personality of Godhead Himself. That is the action of yogamaya, the internal potency of the Supreme Lord, which acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees. Who could play such wonders without being God?
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Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.39
tam menire 'bala mudhah
strainam canuvratam rahah
apramana-vido bhartur
isvaram matayo yatha
The simple and delicate women truly thought that Lord Sri Krsna, their beloved husband, followed them and was dominate
