12/02/2005
"Those readers following the recent commentary in the “It's Taboo, Prabhu” Sun Blog have been apprised of our feelings on the subject of Satsvarupa Goswami. Considering that our central theme is Srila Prabhupada status as the Sampradaya Acarya, there is good reasoning behind an intense dislike for the "Lilamrta". Admittedly, we chose this set of poll questions for that very reason." Read full article.
Replies: 11 Comments
Posted by spp @ 12/07/2005 10:52 PM PST
concerning the brouhaha over the art in someone's art book: i think we should start a petition to ban satsvarupa goswami's (so-called) art, too. that is embarrassingly embarrassing... my bunny could paint better than that... dandavats to you all
Posted by jatayu das @ 12/07/2005 11:27 AM PST
Posted by Can you believe it das! @ 12/07/2005 08:08 AM PST
Here is part of a letter from Satsvarupa das telling a former disciple that it's wrong and offensive for her to consider him fallen because he is accepted by the GBC.
sdd to ...Mataji 12/05
"...However, I am not in a fallen down position. I had a falldown but I have fully recovered. Bhagavad-Gita says 'api cet su-daracah bhajate mam ananya- bhak. If a devotee falls down one should not think of him as actually fallen because he is resolutely a follower of Krsna.
TO THINK OF HIM AS FALLEN IS VERY WRONG AND OFFENSIVE. I AM STILL A GURU WITH DISCIPLES AND FIXED IN MY DUTIES AND—I AM RECOGNIZED BY THE GBC AS SUCH.
But it is up to your own heart whether you want to follow me or not. My case is not that I am fallen down. There’s no need for reinitiation. Following a new siksa guru should be sufficient."
Thanks for posting this excerpt of SDG's letter to his disciple.
Here we see clearly how mayavadha-philosophy has entered Iskcon -
mayavadhis believe that simply by accepting sannyasa they become one with Lord Narayana. Similiarly, SDG honestly believes that a Vaishnava becomes a guru just by the order/vote of the GBC. Srila Prabhupada, however, clearly says just the opposite in Madhya-lila, 24.330, that first off all there has to be qualification, "guru has to be topmost class":
In the Padma Purāṇa, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
mahā-bhāgavata-śreṣṭho brāhmaṇo vai gurur nṛṇām
sarveṣām eva lokānām asau pūjyo yathā hariḥ
mahā-kula-prasūto 'pi sarva-yajñeṣu dīkṣitaḥ
sahasra-śākhādhyāyī ca na guruḥ syād avaiṣṇavaḥ
The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said, gurur nṛṇām. The word nṛṇām means "of all human beings." The guru is not limited to a particular group. It is stated in the Upadeśāmṛta of Rūpa Gosvāmī that a guru is a gosvāmī, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Pṛthivīḿ sa śiṣyāt. This is the test of the guru.
In other words, SDG, in order to cover up that he was never qualified to be guru in the first place he starts a counterattack with an inappropriate quote from BG,[Bg. 9.30], according Srila Prabhupada, meant for sadhus, but never for Vaishnava acaryas:
Prabhupada: Suppose I have got some bad character from the beginning of my life, but I have understood that "Krsna consciousness is very nice. I shall take to it." So I am trying, trying my best. But at the same time, because I am habituated to something, I cannot give it up. Although I know that this, my habit, is not good, but still, habit is the second nature. I cannot give it up. So Lord Krsna recommends that "Still, he is good. There is no question that he is not a sadhu or he is not an honest, he is not religious man. That simple one qualification, that he is Krsna conscious, and he is acting sincerely, but failing sometime, but still, he is to be taken as sadhu." Sadhu means honest, religious, pious. Sadhur eva sa mantavyah [Bg. 9.30]. And one may say that "Yes, because he is devotee of God, devotee of Krsna, we may call him sadhu, but not cent percent." But Krsna says, "No, cent percent sadhu. In spite of his bad character, he is cent percent sadhu."
Additionally SDG, seeing no other sastrical support for his awkward speculation, is threating that disciple, that rejecting him as guru is, "VERY WRONG AND OFFENSIVE". And, "I have fully recovered from that falldown".
He took up the position of diksa guru with the understanding of being above falling down, being a master. Since that was already a severe error, how can he make others believe that he presently has fully recovered?
This is conscious criminal energy in practice. The very same conscious policy he took up to explicitly label Srila Prabhupada again and again in his "lilamrita" as some classmate guru of such kind, who just recently struggled heavily to get off the kanistha bafflements.
And he himself, as one who can see all this very clearly where Srila Prabhupada was "coming from", according his "lilamrita" teachings, posing as totally free&liberated.
Who is the instructing party behind this fraud?Posted by Jahnava @ 12/07/2005 09:19 AM PST
Dear Madhav prabhu,
Thanks for your comments. We don't deny that there's a degree of bias, both in the framing of questions and the editorial summarizations that follow each series. We say as much in the editorials. Because the bias is quite transparent, readers/voters aren't likely to be fooled.
While it would be great to get spun up on statistical methodology so we could run some polls that are controlled and precise, what we're aiming at here at the Sun, at least for the time being, are informal public opinion polls.
As for those voters who don't think that Srila Prabhupada's movement is being turned into a religion.... that's another poll. We assume that voters taking that position simply won't vote in this poll. That assumption will be mentioned in the follow-up editorial. In anticipation of the varied opinions on this question, we also plan to attach a Sun Blog to the H.K. Religion poll recap, as we did here on Lilamrta.Posted by Can you believe it das! @ 12/07/2005 08:08 AM PST
Here is part of a letter from Satsvarupa das telling a former disciple that it's wrong and offensive for her to consider him fallen because he is accepted by the GBC.
sdd to ...Mataji 12/05
"...However, I am not in a fallen down position. I had a falldown but I have fully recovered. Bhagavad-Gita says 'api cet su-daracah bhajate mam ananya- bhak. If a devotee falls down one should not think of him as actually fallen because he is resolutely a follower of Krsna.
TO THINK OF HIM AS FALLEN IS VERY WRONG AND OFFENSIVE. I AM STILL A GURU WITH DISCIPLES AND FIXED IN MY DUTIES AND—I AM RECOGNIZED BY THE GBC AS SUCH.
But it is up to your own heart whether you want to follow me or not. My case is not that I am fallen down. There’s no need for reinitiation. Following a new siksa guru should be sufficient."Posted by Madhav @ 12/07/2005 07:33 AM PST
These polls are very biased looking at the recent one
"Is it good for humanity that Srila Prabhupada's society is transforming into a religion?"
The 3 options are yes no and not sure. What about the people that dont think that it is being turned in to a religion?
Biased questions get biased results, someone needs to learn some basic statistical methodology.Posted by Alex @ 12/05/2005 08:59 AM PST
Dear Sudama Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It was interesting for me to read the pdf file that you posted to the Sampradaya Sun blog. Thank you for making it available.
Assuming that the letter was indeed written by Satsvarupa Prabhu...it seems to indicate that the unedited transcripts and/or tapes of two meetings between Sridhara Maharaja and certain ISKCON leaders in the late seventies...have perhaps not yet been made public.
At the start of the letter, the author states: "Enclosed is material for understanding the role of initiating gurus in ISKCON".
I am assuming that this 'material' is a reference to the tapes and/or transcripts of, at least, the second meeting with Sridhara Maharaja.
In addressing the GBC members, the author of the letter states that the "edited versions of the two talks should be widely distributed amongst the devotees". He also states: "I think we agreed the unedited transcripts and tapes of these talks should be kept confidentially, for your own reference".
I would be interested in learning more about why GBC members would agree to distribute edited transcripts and tapes of the talks, and keep the unedited transcripts and tapes confidentially.
It would be interesting for me if the unedited transcripts and/or tapes of these talks were to be made publicly available, by someone who has access to them.
Hare Krsna. Your servant, AlexPosted by Sudama das @ 12/03/2005 09:03 AM PST
Here are some of Satsvarupa's comments about his own writing, from 11/11/2005:
SDG Writes
Recent Articles & Quotes
Writing for Purification
Oh, phooey. You don't have any spiritual sentiments. You're just writing to fill the page with snazzy lines. You have no principles, no integrity, you just write, using up all life for your prose and poems. As a result, next life you probably will get sent to a place or a birth for writers. Instead, celebrate the beauty of Krsna's pastimes, name and form.
You will write about Krsna, that much sense you have. But I fear you are writing out of your own sense of ego, that that comes before the sincere desire to please the Lord.
If that is so, what is the best way for me to purify myself? Probably by writing. Get through it. Serve the Lord. Remember what Swami said.Posted by Sudama das @ 12/03/2005 08:57 AM PST
When I joined the Boston temple back in 1995, I was told to read the Lilamrta *before* reading Srila Prabhupada's books. I did so, and came away with a muddled idea of Srila Prabhupada's true position. This contributed to my decision to get initiated by a cheater guru who I later rejected. Because I did not have a clear idea of what a pure devotee guru was, I made a mistake.
It was when I started reading Srila Prabhupada's books two to three hours a day that I realized what the true qualifications of an uttama adhikari guru were.
My wife and I cut all the photographs of Srila Prabhupada out of our copy of the Lilamrta and burned it. Good riddance to bad rubbish. That such a book is still approved by ISKCON is only more evidence of the massive hoax that has been foisted upon the rank and file devotees by the leaders.
If you don't believe 'saintly' Satsvarupa could be deceptive check out this handwritten note specifically asking his godbrothers not to release the unedited conversations that they had with Sridhara Maharaj:
http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/public/satsvarupa_letter.pdf
There are many documents like this one showing they were cheating the devotees right from the very beginning. All newer devotees should make a thorough study of ISKCON's history, taking care to note how many times the GBC have changed their position on gurus and initiations.
Older devotees like Rocana can remember what it was like to have ELEVEN vyasasanas in the temple, and anyone who questioned the divine nature of the zonal acharyas was simply thrown out in the street. The individuals who created the zonal acharya system are some of the SAME people who are in charge of ISKCON today!
Here is some "artwork" by the author of the Lilamrta. Is this the person you want introducing you to Krishna's pure devotee?!?
http://markswright.brinkster.net/SDGOnline/images/garden_2/sculpture_16.jpg
Posted by Prahlada M dasa @ 12/02/2005 04:13 PM PST
Different Kinds of Disciples
Dear Rocana prabhu,
I found your following statement to be particularly worthy of highlighting:“As the present time, the diksa guru tattva being promoted …is modeled on the supposition that everyone is starting off as a sadhana bhakta, including those transcendental personalities we designate as being Sampradaya Acaryas: Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, and A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.”
There is confusion about Srila Prabhupada's biography only because today all disciples are viewed as nitya baddhas. All disciples of course have not been conditioned - even prior to being initiated.
We learn from Mayesvara prabhu’s excellent article (All Faiths Equal Sophistry), how misleading it is to lump all religious faiths as the same. Similarly, upon reflection, we will appreciate the significant difference there is in viewing Srila Prabhupada as either a sadhana-siddha or as a nitya-siddha. From all accounts His Divine Grace has been mentioned not only as a nitya siddha but a sakty-avesa avatara.
All disciples indeed are not the same - as all religious paths are not the same; as all gurus are not the same. Gold and iron are both metals but different in all other respects.
I commend you on the above observation - a fine but significant distinction, among others.Posted by BhaktaCharlie @ 12/02/2005 03:21 PM PST
I feel the poll addresses valid points. However, when topics like this are discussed, I always like to point out that: 1) essentially all of us here are nitya baddha. 2) Therefore any discussion of nitya siddha is like the discussions of 5-year olds about material sex. They simply lack the maturity to address the issue accurately. In time, they will understand on their own and naturally about the issue. Until then, the conversations do not contain a lot of value.
There is much more in the poll however, for example about the Zonal Acharya system. So I do believe asking these questions does have value, though the value needs to be qualified.
Respectfully, bhakta charliePosted by anon @ 12/02/2005 02:41 PM PST
Gee, from where I sit the "lilamrta" poll appears to be a bust. I think any literature about a nitya-siddha devotee and a pure spiritual master such as Srila Prabhupada is as good as gold since it gives the reader insight into ISKCON's founder-acarya as well. I do not think Satsvarupa's biography in any way denigrates Srila prabhupada's status and anything to the contrary should also be looked at as offensive by those who want to tear down the house that Srila Prabhupada built. Again, if Rocana Das feels Satsvarupa's biography is offensive, he should go on a quest to gather his own material and write his biography of Srila Prabhupada the way he envisions it. I'm sure we would all be anxious to read it.
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