Questions for Suria Prabhu
BY: BHAKTA THAKUR
Apr 20, 2010 USA (SUN) In his recent article, "Become Guru by Order, That's All", Mahesh Raja prabhu refers to Suria prabhu as a hypocrite based on the above article. I totally agree. I have been following Sampradaya Sun for years and am an ardent fan of their website because of the FREEDOM of SPEECH, unlike Dandavats.com's fort, where only ISKCON friendly articles are entertained and we cannot post anything else, even though it is satya.
I agree with Mahesh Raja prabhu's assessment of Suria prabhu not only on Suria's weak analysis of Srila Prabhupada's Will and his speculative articles, but also on his past statements.
First, Suria prabhu here clearly does not understand basic English and doesn't know the difference between singular and plural. He totally goes off with his flaccid interpretation when anyone with the faintest understanding of English can discern if it was a single guru or a multiple guru system. As usual, being blinded by ignorance stemming out of false sentiment, he provides a FALSE ARGUMENT which Mahesh prabhu had pointed out.
Also, we have not seen him till date give conclusive BLACK AND WHITE evidence on when his guru nor the others were ORDERED by Srila Prabhupada! We hope to see the evidence. He goes around beating about the bush and yet not forcing a simple evidence from his arsenal on a clear instruction of the appointment of Regular Gurus by Srila Prabhupada. We have yet to see his evidence from Prabhupada on any names being invoked to be Gurus. Even the GBC are yet to present us that evidence.
Suria prabhu, I want to know the following:
1) When was the order changed from:
"The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative."
(July 9th Letter)
The newly initiated devotees will be disciples of the 11 "Gurus" who were appointed only as RTVIKS. Devotees will be initiated in the future by the voted in gurus.
(Post-1977 till date)
I want the exact date because according to the GBC, they seem to not have the answer for this. So if your GURU system is bona fide, kindly divulge. You are bound to contradict at least one or more of the below and Truths DO NOT contradict. So let us see your answer.
"The appointment of July 8th which is the only appointment on record is the appointment of ritviks... Most devotees who have studied this transcribed conversation agree that it is reasonable to conclude that Prabhupada expected those who officiated as ritviks in his presence would continue after his disappearance as diksa-gurus under his order."
('Under My Order': Reflections on the Guru in ISKCON, Ravindra Svarupa Das, 1985)
"On July 7th, Prabhupada gave the list of those he "chose". The process was already clear. First on his behalf, then regular guru."
(Continuing the Parampara, Sivarama Swami, p20, 1994)
"The present paper will show that on May 28th, 1977, Srila Prabhupada ordered his disciples to become initiating spiritual masters."
(Disciple of My Disciple, p2, Badrinarayana Das, Umapati Swami et al., 1997)
So, I need to know who is lying here? You, or your GBC leaders? Having said that, the above statements clearly show that liars cannot be consistent and hence if you are with ISKCON on this issue, you are as good as lost!
2) Who was authorised by Srila Prabhupada to become Guru post-1977, since you are a Guru supporter? I need names! Not just quotes taken here and there like you have posted, which were taken out of context and plain ridiculous. Tamal Krishna Maharaj admitted that no one was ordered to become Guru, but just ritviks. If you accept that Tamal Maharaj was right, then you have to show me proof of when the order was overturned? Again, I need dates and names!
"Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn't appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC's have done the greatest dis-service to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus".
(Tamal Maharaj Topango confession)
So who gave the order that one can become from Ritvik to Guru? If no order was given and it was done according to their own will, then it is not bona fide and is against Srila Prabhupada's order! If that is bogus, then a Guru voting system, which is much more absurd, is really a lost call.
"The standards I have already given you, now try to maintain them at all times under standard procedure. Do not try to innovate or create anything or manufacture anything, that will ruin everything".
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Bali Mardan, who was GBC, September 18, 1972)
"I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully."
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Kirtanananda, November 2, 1967)
You have to also tell us why the standards given by Srila Prabhupada were not maintained and why some mundane voting-in of so-called Gurus were brought in when the ACHARYA was supposed to be in the center, and now we have A, B, C maharajas hogging the light and ruining ISKCON? How do we justify this disobedience by removing Srila Prabhupada? Kindly cite evidences on an order by Prabhupada to be removed as the ISKCON Acarya when he leaves the planet! The July 9th Letter does not validate your position, as there was no mention of anyone other than Srila Prabhupada to have disciples and nowhere was it stated that it was till his departure.
3) Kindly prove your position by providing evidence from Srila Prabhupada that the current Voting-in Guru system is bona fide. I want to know where Srila Prabhupada stated that Gurus can be voted by the GBC in ISKCON. Kindly address this, because the SAC admits that it is not supported by Guru, Sadhu or Sastra.
"Our present system has institutionalized a process of senior devotees voting or offering no-objection to prospective gurus. But we do not find that this institutionalized blessing-seeking process is mentioned by guru, sadhu or sastra as the way that one is authorized to become a guru."
(ISKCON Sastric Advisory Council)
So, I want to know from you, how this is supported by Srila Prabhupada, since you claim that Ritvik-ism is bogus. The only alternate system which is in practise is the Voting-in. Srila Prabhupada introduced the Ritvik system and it was abandoned and made way for something which he never, ever mentioned. Can you explain with specific evidence by Srila Prabhupada on when Prabhupada introduced this or why it was abandoned? I DO NOT WANT out of context quotes which do not answer my question. If it wasn't introduced by Srila Prabhupada, then you don't have a case.
4) Your analysis on Srila Prabhupada's Will was equally poor. You display your hypocrisy here. Why did you leave out #2 purposely? Is it because that statement itself exposes and defeats your argument in totality?
"2. Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three executive directors. The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change."
So why was the system of management changed post-1977? The system of management includes accepting disciples and initiation as well, since discipleship is an essential aspect to the longevity of ISKCON. So why was the Ritvik system abandoned and why did you omit this IMPORTANT evidence? Are you trying to cheat innocent people, like Mahesh prabhu suggested? This is not how people analyze "Wills" because NO ONE starts from #1 and then goes to #3 without reading #2! Unless one wants to cheat, he will present the truth! You are cheating everyone prabhu, and it is clear to see.
"Otherwise, a devotee of KRISHNA, he never cheats. He NEVER cheats."
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation March 2, 1975)
So we have to question your qualifications since you try to deceive the audience just to boost your false position. If not, why else would you omit such glaring evidence? Let us not even go to you being a devotee, since you were auto-excluded based on Srila Prabhupada's statement alone.
5) You said that you are not formally initiated but your Guru has accepted you. Could you advise us who your Guru is? Could you also point us in the correct direction of how and WHEN EXACTLY he became Guru? Is he one of the 11 ritviks who became Gurus, or one of the voted-in ones?
6) Also Suria prabhu, could I know which Rtvik devotee you defeated in Singapore, since I know a few devotees there? According to a few Singapore Ritvik devotees, they called it a BIG lie and told me that you cannot be Trusted. Going by the way you write and analyze statements and try to blatantly HIDE pertinent evidences, I think they have a point! So, if you can clear the air on whom and when you defeated him/her and when he/she actually accepted defeat, that will clear the air. They are already exchanging their views on a constant manner with you so I am not sure if you are referring to the same?
Your Well wisher,