BY: ROCANA DASA
Sep 28, 2021 — CANADA (SUN) — Studying Srila Prabhupada's conversations with ISKCON leaders.
Today's Talks is inspired by Srila Prabhupada's rooftop conversation of December 26, 1975, in Sanand, India. The conversation is primarily between Srila Prabhupada and Harikesa. While Hansadutta, Hari Sauri and an unidentified Indian-bodied person were also present, they don't really participate much. I'm not sure who was there as the GBC representative. At that time, Harikesa was the GBC from Eastern Europe, and I assume that Hari Sauri was acting as his secretary.
As he often did in these conversations, Harikesa takes the devil's advocate position, speaking from the materialist point of view, while Srila Prabhupada instructed the devotees in how to preach to such persons. Of course, this is very appropriate now that we know ISKCON history.
I chose this particular conversation because Srila Prabhupada took this opportunity to give us a brilliant presentation on how to preach the concept of achieving real enjoyment. He presents some amazing analogies in this conversation.
Srila Prabhupada beings the conversation by asking 'what is the thesis of life?' Later on he gives the complete definition, which basically goes like this: The thesis is the soul, the antithesis is the body, and the synthesis is how to adjust the body and soul so the soul is benefited from this entanglement.
Srila Prabhupada is asking this question of Harikesa, and Harikesa plays the prominent role in the exchange, although we can see that he does a rather poor job, as Srila Prabhupada indicates throughout the conversation. At this point in time it's obvious that the devotees don't know who Srila Prabhupada is in terms of his being a Sampradaya Acarya, his incredible wealth of knowledge, and his amazing understanding of how to preach. He obviously wants those present to understand how to present the philosophy in the way that he is giving it. Throughout the conversation he makes it clear to his senior men that they have to use this information to go out and defeat the foolish theories that are being presented in the materialistic culture.
Harikesa is supposedly an expert at Marxist philosophy because he's been preaching in countries that are trying to practically implement that philosophy. As history shows us, these countries all failed at their effort. Harikesa himself, in due course, personally failed miserably as a disciple, GBC, sannyasi and guru. In fact, his falldown was so huge even the GBC had an impossible time covering it up. At the bottom of this article I've provided a few hot links for those who want to educate themselves on the scope of Harikesa's demise and the impact it had on Srila Prabhupada's preaching movement.
As I've said in previous conversations, it seems to me that Srila Prabhupada is preaching to his disciples with an uncanny understanding of what's going to happen in the future, not only to ISKCON, but to the individuals he's preaching to. This certainly seems to be the case in this rooftop conversation, considering that the only person he's talking to is Harikesa. Later on, Harikesa became the biggest body-blow that ISKCON has incurred in terms of falldowns of Zonal Acaryas.
Another historical fact that one should keep in mind is that Harikesa was the Zonal Acarya who undermined the so-called Reform Movement in the mid-1980's. He informed the reformers and his fellow GBC's that if the demands made by the reformers were implemented, then he would leave ISKCON with as many followers and assets as he possibly could. He said that if that happened, ISKCON would disintegrate and the reformers would be the ones to be blamed. Consequently, Ravindra Svarupa capitulated to his demands, and we see the results that we have today, which is the compromise version of reform. As history shows us, Harikesa still left the movement and took vast amounts of Srila Prabhupada's resources with him. It was due to this circumstance that I finally decided to leave the shadow ISKCON.
Having said all this, let us enjoy hearing Srila Prabhupada's presentation. His first analogy, which may raise a few eyebrows, is the example that when people want to enjoy sex, they often wear a contraceptive. As a result of not enjoying sex as much with the contraceptive, they invented "the pill". This pill had to be taken by the women, and women throughout the world have suffered many side effects as a result. Srila Prabhupada also explains that if you want to enjoy sex you can't do that with all your clothes on. You have to go to a private room, take all your clothes off and get naked in order to enjoy sex. With this example in mind, one can understand that the spirit soul cannot enjoy as long as it has the external body covering. In order to enjoy, you have to remove the external covering of the material body and in this way you can enjoy. That's our thesis.
syn•the•sis: the combination of parts or elements into a whole
an•tith•e•sis: the opposition or contrast of ideas
The antithesis, or the body, has to become uncovered. You have to take off the material covering. Of course, one can't do that artificially, so therefore there has to be synthesis, which is the process of engaging in Bhakti Yoga or Krsna consciousness under the guidance of a pure devotee. This, of course, is Srila Prabhupada's program.
Harikesa throws out the term "dialectical spiritualism" and Srila Prabhupada rejects it, because he knows full well what the term " dialectical" means. He says this can refer both to spiritualism and materialism, but the materialist rascal scientists, they only deal with the covering because they don't know about the existence of the soul. Therefore their theories are useless.
Srila Prabhupada gives another analogy, of the coconut. We all know that the coconut has a very hard and rough exterior but inside it has very sweet pulp and water. The rough exterior is required to protect the interior. If you didn't have that hard shell, then the interior would get spoiled very quickly. In order to get into the interior, you have to use a great deal of force. Now the Communists or the Darwinists, all the material theorists, they just deal with the coconut shell, the exterior. They are compared here to cats and dogs. They are fighting over something that has very little value in itself, unless they can uncover the interior.
So throughout the conversation, Srila Prabhupada turns to the devotees and says that you have to prove that these Western theorists are wrong. And in order to do that, you have to not only go out and preach to them, but you have to learn the analogies that he's giving and how to present them. At the same time, you need the help of the expert - the pure devotee Spiritual Master, Sampradaya Acarya, and Srila Prabhupada compares that to looking for gold. Now everyone wants to find gold but if you don't have a mineralogist, then you're just digging here and there, and you'll never find gold. But the expert says if you dig here, there's a much better chance of finding gold. In fact, there's a whole mine of gold.
Srila Prabhupada says everybody is suffering and looking for happiness, and the most prominent form of suffering is that you're going to die, and you can't avoid that. Srila Prabhupada continually brings up his coconut analogy, about how the materialist doesn't understand what's inside the coconut, so all his theories are useless. You have to understand that we are a spiritsoul, we're not this body. On account of making constant adjustments in the material world to try and find this happiness, they're causing even more and more suffering, and that's what revolution is all about. You revolt, you try a new theory, and after some time you discover you're not happy, so you have another revolution. As a result, so many people suffer on account of this constant revolting and strife.
Srila Prabhupada uses the commonly heard analogy of finding out who your father is. There's no use going around asking every male person if they're you're father, because some cheater is going to say yes, he is your father, when he's not your father.
Harikesa states that there's a certain amount of mental satisfaction by accepting these material theories such as Marxism or Darwinism. But Srila Prabhupada compares that to the satisfaction a child gets when you hand him a lozenger and take his 100 rupee note. As soon as the lozenger is finished, he's again unhappy and he doesn't have the 100 rupee note, which he could have used to buy thousands of lozengers. Srila Prabhupada says, "try to convince them in that way. That will be great service." Coming from the mouth of a pure devotee, the Spiritual Master, one can be confident that if one goes out and preaches in the way that Srila Prabhupada is preaching here, that one will get a great deal of mercy because the Acaryas consider this a great service. And this is the kind of service that we, as relatively neophyte persons, can easily perform. We can convince people of this because we're at least able to grasp this aspect of this philosophy. We should become very enthusiastic and expert at convincing people on this level. If we do this, we'll make a great deal of advancement rather than individually trying to delve into the higher esoteric understandings of our philosophy exclusively, and not preaching.
Srila Prabhupada then admits that he's done this with a few select men, but now these few select men have to spread this to a much bigger field. To a certain degree that's been accomplished, but not to the degree that Srila Prabhupada anticipated or desired, because of so many reasons.
Srila Prabhupada goes on to say that birth, death, old age and disease have always existed since time immemorial, so there's no question of this concept being a modern idea. This is an eternal fact. So this is the principle we stand on. Our preaching is not modern at all, it's ageless, and it's the same type of preaching that has been going on since the beginning of time. And Srila Prabhupada quotes two slokas, and these slokas basically describe anyone who accepts the body as the self as being an ass or a cow. This is something many preachers have a hard time categorically stating they present our philosophy, feeling that their audience will be disturbed by hearing this. But Srila Prabhupada makes it clear that this is what Krsna says and this is what's written in Srimad Bhagavatam, so if you're a representative of Krsna, then it's your duty to present the message of Srimad Bhagavatam in a similar manner:
Yasyatma buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13].
TRANSLATION:
One who identifies his self as the inert body composed of mucus, bile and air, who assumes his wife and family are permanently his own, who thinks an earthen image or the land of his birth is worshipable, or who sees a place of pilgrimage as merely the water there, but who never identifies himself with, feels kinship with, worships or even visits those who are wise in spiritual truth-such a person is no better than a cow or an ass.
Brhaspati-samhita
ajnata-bhagavad-dharma
mantra-vijnana-samvidaù
naras te go-khara jneya
api bhu-pala-vanditaù
"Men who do not know the principles of devotional service to the Supreme Lord should be known as cows and asses, even if they are expert in technically analyzing Vedic mantras and are adored by world leaders."
Srila Prabhupada then says something I find extremely profound and relevant today. Harikesa offers a little glorification of Srila Prabhupada, but Srila Prabhupada comes back and says:
"You can eulogize your Guru Maharaja, but you have to learn it and face the public and be strong to defend yourself. That is success. Not by praising your Guru Maharaja. You'll praise your Guru Maharaja. That is not very difficult. But be victorious to the opposing elements. Then you will praise your Guru Maharaja nicely. At home, you can praise your Guru Maharaja, and Guru Maharaja be satisfied, "Oh, my disciples are praising me." That is not very.... That is good. Respectful. That is the qualification. But you have to fight. Then your Guru Maharaja will be glorified."
That's just too easy, but of course we see it today, time and time again… neophyte disciples glorifying their guru, but not having the preaching spirit. The unqualified guru becomes intoxicated by this glorification and doesn't push his disciples to go out and preach.
Harikesa then tries to present Marxist philosophy and Srila Prabhupada instructs him on how to deal with the Communists. We should say to them that criticizing the capitalists isn't good enough. In theory it's good, but they don't know who the proprietor is - Krsna, God - so instead they say that the proprietor is the State. Thus their whole position is undermined and that they're forcibly stealing from the proprietor, declaring that to be the State.
We have heard in other places that Srila Prabhupada did consider Krsna consciousness to be a form of 'spiritual communism' wherein one has to be fixed in the understanding that everything belongs to Krsna, and that the State, or the human resources, all have to be used in Krsna's service. Srila Prabhupada gives a brilliant presentation on this subject. Harikesa obviously didn't realize this principle, considering the fact that he demanded a great deal of money from ISKCON when he left so that he could enjoy independent sex life. Of course, this was Srila Prabhupada's money. And the GBC capitulated and let him have the money because he had engaged in all sorts of illegal activities through the BBT. He threatened to tell the authorities about all these activities that he himself had organized, but in the name of Srila Prabhupada's BBT. So instead of calling his bluff and depending on Krsna, the GBC handed over to him at least a half million dollars, if not much more. What brought this whole fiasco to a head was that Harikesa had just lost 20 million dollars of Srila Prabhupada's money in the Russian stock market. There are many testimonials and a wealth of evidence that other GBC knew full well that he was up to this kind of nonsense, but didn't step in and do anything about it. Consequently, Srila Prabhupada lost millions and millions of dollars and many, many followers who left his service as a result of becoming disgusted with this whole affair.
Srila Prabhupada mentions to Harikesa at this point:
"Just see how rascal they are. This is the fact. We make some arrangement, and after few years it becomes imperfect. They say the revolution required. Why? That is natural. And natural means a power, which makes your arrangement spoiled. Then what is your brain? You have got some superior brain which nullifies your plan. Why don't you accept this?"
In response, Harikesa says, "Like breaking the law and being thrown in jail…", which is exactly where Harikesa belongs. But no, the GBC gave him a Get Out of Jail Free card along with a half million dollars. This is how they protect Srila Prabhupada's movement.
Srila Prabhupada reminds everyone that Krsna does not say 'make an experiment'. He says 'I am the proprietor of everything, therefore there's no need to experiment.' But if you don't accept Krsna's words, then you go around uselessly wasting your time experimenting. Srila Prabhupada then uses the example of the Sun, saying it's very easy to see that the sun is the source of heat and light - you don't have to experiment with that.
In response, Harikesa tries to make some kind of a philosophical presentation, but it's totally unintelligible gobblydigook… not simply that the theory is unintelligible, but that Harikesa wasn't capable of presenting an opposing theory. Harikesa is constantly trying to convince Srila Prabhupada that he knows something he doesn't, and is trying to look like an intellectual who has a grasp on Western philosophy, but he basically reveals that he's a fool and a very neophyte disciple. Of course, Srila Prabhupada doesn't say that to him. Instead he uses whatever he can from what Harikesa is trying to say in order to continue on with his own presentation. In doing so, he sticks with his analogy of the sun and the sunshine. The scientists explanation of the sun is so incomplete because they're imperfect. Even though they experiment, they still don't have any idea of how it is that the sun can produce all this energy because they wont' accept that the energy comes from God.
I find that this is a very valuable conversation to study. Srila Prabhupada is only talking to one person, but it's obvious that his objective is to train up not only the disciples who are present on the roof. He knows full well that he's being recorded and that in the future, many followers will have an opportunity to hear what he has to say. We will all be able to learn his valuable preaching techniques, what to speak of being motivated by his insistence that we go out and actively and boldly preach. Sadly, the GBC/BBT have not yet managed to make some 40% of Srila Prabhupada's recorded sound vibration available for consumption by the devotees. It is a terrible shame that so many less important projects are undertaken each day by the devotees in ISKCON, yet no one has managed to accomplish this most crucial task. What other instructions are on those hundreds of hours of tapes? We can be sure that the solutions to so many of our problems in ISKCON are languishing there on dusty shelves.
Although it doesn't seem that the devotees present for this rooftop conversation learned much, hopefully those who hear from Srila Prabhupada now and have the benefit of historical memory will be able to get more out of what was said than Harikesa and Hansadutta did.
