Apr 29, 2021 — INDIA (SUN) —
Praveen Mohan video and Jambudvipa article, Mistakes in the Models for the Temple of
Vedic Planetarium by Mayesvara dasa.
Praveen Mohan has a great show, which is very enriching, covering the fascinating mysteries of ancient India. The subject of this particular episode is a highly controversial subject—a subject which involves the interplay of very powerful interests. The astronomers Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, etc., all worked with models of the solar system with the understanding that the earth is a globe. However, as the ancient Vedas of India detail, the earth is but a part of a greater area that appears to be flat. But at the same time a Vedic student cannot say that positively that it is not flat. It is a paradox. This is what Srila Prabhupada wants us to understand. Until a person acquires elevated consciousness they cannot understand the nature of this paradox. This area is parallel to what is known in astronomy as the ecliptic, and is called the “bhu-mandala.”
Credit can be given to the conventional flat earthers for questioning the mainstream narrative. They are considering a concept radically different than what is taught in our educational systems. But they are limited to the three-dimensional paradigm, and consequently are missing an existing multidimensional interrelation. Being multidimensional, the ancient Vedic "flat" earth concept is even further removed from the mainstream narrative.
In Mayapur, India is being constructed a Vedic planetarium. The Founder/Acharya of ISKCON, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has given instruction to build this Vedic planetarium in India strictly according to the shastric (scriptural) Vedic description. Praveen Mohan has presented parts of a very nice ISKCON video of a Vedic model of the universe, showing the characteristic flat plane of the disc-shaped bhu-mandala. At minute 1:04 of his Flat Earth video the Vedic imagery is replaced with the image of the United Nation’s Azimuthal Equidistant Projection. Both presentations feature a basic two-dimensional disc format. However, the comparative geography of the two are utterly different. The Azimuthal map details the continents which are familiar to everyone, but the Vedic bhu-mandala plane encompasses a central mountain of solid gold that is centrally positioned as is the fictitious north pole of the Azimuthal Projection. In the shape of a conical pillar, this central mountain stands amid a disc-shaped island 800,000 miles in diameter which is characterized by numerous perpendicularly-set mountains many thousands of miles high, which in turn is surrounded by a series of alternating concentric oceans and land masses which overall, extend 2 billion miles outward.
At minute 8:39 of the video appears a reportedly 750-year-old south Indian murti of Sri Varahadeva in Somnathpur temple of South India holding in His hands a rounded, but not spherical form of the earth. A deduction of a spheroid whose contour would fit a lotus petal (as Srila Prabhupada informs us is the shape of the earth in the dialogue below) would be what is called a tri-axial spheroid. The form wielded by this Sri Varahadeva murti resembles this type of spheroid, and incidentally, it is not flat. This three-dimensional, depiction of the earth being wielded by Sri Varahadeva is not spherical, but it is clearly egg-shaped or somewhat rounded. Again, the impassioned mind may dictate that earth’s form can be either flat or some three-dimensional form, but not both, because such a concept is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary person. But the format of the universe is no doubt not up to the comprehension of an ordinary person. The characteristics of the earth, including its dimensions are in fact far beyond the comprehension of an ordinary person. This must be faced, and this is stated by Srila Prabhupada. He has stated that earth’s dimensions are inconceivable (multi-dimensional) and that therefore there is “no argument."
During a morning walk in Los Angeles in 1973 Srila Prabhupada stated, “Bhū-gola, the earth is round. So in the Vedic literatures... Therefore their knowledge is also imperfect because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there. Bhū-gola. Bhū means the earth; gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhū-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo.”
Understandably, there are those who will have a lot of difficulty with this statement, but Srila Prabhupada said it. In answer to the contradiction with a flat earth concept created by the introduction of a round earth, purists will say that this roundness is merely two-dimensional as in a disc that an ant can crawl along the periphery of (an analogy given by Srila Prabhupada). However, we clearly can see a three-dimensional object being held by Sri Varahadeva in the video. Is the three-dimensional object to be taken as allegorical or literal?
In the ISKCON “Mistakes in the Models” article wise advice is given wherein it is stated:
"By seeing through the eye of scripture, one with faith will be able to quickly ascertain Bharata-varsha's location on the flat-Earth plane. The conditioned mind is otherwise not capable of grasping the reality of Bhu-mandala. The members of ISKCON who lack faith in Sukadeva Goswami's description of the Earth, will ironically find themselves arguing against Srimad Bhagavatam's version of reality by insisting on arguing in defence of the globe model. Sukadeva Goswami states that the form of the Bhu-mandala is understood by ‘Learned scholars who are free from mistakes, illusions, and propensities to cheat.’ (SB 5.20.38). We cannot, therefore, expect that everyone within the International Society for Krishna Consciousness will understand the Bhu-mandala for the above mentioned reasons.”
Well according to the eyes of scripture, in the purport of SB 3.23.43 Srila Prabhupada, a person who fits into the category of “learned scholars who are free from mistakes, illusions, and propensities to cheat” states that “All the planets are here described as gola, round. Every planet is round...” In SB 3.21.53 are the words “mandalam” or “the globe”, and “bhuvah” or “of the earth”, translating as “the globe of the earth.” There it is. Srila Vyasadeva, Srila Sukadeva Goswami, and Srila Prabhupada all concur that the earth is a globe. Clearly, Srila Prabhupada is one with complete faith who is able to quickly ascertain Bharata-varsha's location on the “flat”-Earth plane, as opposed to others who may be unable to do so. Srimad Bhagavatam’s version of reality happens to clearly support the globe earth version in this verse. Hence, the concept is not a contradiction to Srimad Bhagavatam’s version of reality. Finding corroboration of the earth as a globe in the Srimad Bhagavatam is a legitimate argument in defense of the globe model. Verses or purports found in the Bhagavatam which convey concepts which may appear to contradict the globe concept exist, but their contradictory status is true only within a conditioned mind. In a way, it is similar to the achintya-bheda-abheda philosophy— “inconceivably, simultaneously one and different.” Unfortunately, this does not make designing the planetarium easier. The design perhaps should somehow therefore represent the simultaneous and enigmatic status of the earth in its multi-dimensions.
But ultimately, we must remember that Srila Prabhupada has informed us that the situation of the earth upon the Bhu-mandala is inconceivable, so therefore there is no question of arguing.
A very important excerpt from the purport of SB 3.16.23: “...The Vedic injunction is that one cannot understand the Absolute Truth simply by mental speculation or logical argument. One has to follow the authorities. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Great authorities should be followed; otherwise, if we simply depend on the scriptures, we are sometimes misled by rascals, or else we cannot understand or follow the different spiritual injunctions. The best path is to follow the authorities...”
Excerpt from Srimad Bhagavatam purport 3.23.43: “All the planets are here described as gola, round. Every planet is round, and each planet is a different shelter, just like islands in the great ocean. Planets are sometimes called dvīpa or varṣa.”
Prabhupāda: No, we don't say flat.
(Excerpt from following conversation on July 5, 1977, Vrndavana, Discussion about Bhu-mandala, access through PrabhupadaBooks.com):
Prabhupāda: Lotus is also round. Lotus, that petal is also round. Lotus petal is round. So within one lotus petal this round or that round, there is.
Śatadhanya: And within their own limited sphere they can go this way or that way. But they don't know the whole shape.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to draw the shape probably, because according to what we've drawn so far...
Prabhupāda: That you can do, but real thing is we can remain within the limit.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we accept.
Prabhupāda: So within the limit...Suppose the lotus petal this way, that way, or this way...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You're asking us to draw the details and make a planetarium very exact.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Lotus petal, it is round. So in one lotus petal you are conditioned. You cannot go.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So far that hasn’t been said, but that’s… You can say that Bharata-varsa is a petal of the lotus. But I think if you look at the Bhagavatam, it may… I’d have to see it, what it says. There’s a statement that it may be the inner portion of the lotus. I don’t know… [break] And what we do, it has to agree with the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupāda: Lotus petal... There are so many petals. You are conditioned with one petal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's... If that's the explanation, then it can be somehow adjusted.
Prabhupāda: You do not know what is going on outside.
Devotee: There's so many round parts of a lotus petal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that part...That could be adjusted. But there's a place within it, you know, the center part, there's no petals. In the middle of the lotus there's like a... I don't know what you call it, but a... It's a flattish area. They show Kṛṣṇa standing sometimes when they draw a picture of Kṛṣṇa on a lotus.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But your place is in.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That we accept.
Prabhupāda: That we have to hear from authority.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We accept that. I'm just thinking...
Prabhupāda: Unless you are obstinate, you have to accept if you are convinced.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We accept.
Prabhupāda: There are so many millions of stars and moons that we cannot go.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As we are conditioned, as everyone is conditioned, our planetarium will have to show the actual facts.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That fact we have learned from Bhāgavatam.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, so far we have not drawn this fact correctly.
Prabhupāda: That is your inability. That is another thing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, well that's why we're... That's the question that we've raised. This question that we've raised is due to that.
Prabhupāda: That is you are unable to, but the fact is that you are conditioned. You cannot go beyond that conditioned
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's accepted.
Prabhupāda: So we are also conditioned. But as far as possible we take description from Bhāgavata, try to. That is our... Suppose here is India, here is Los Angeles. You start from India, Los Angeles..., or India, you'll come to Los Angeles. And again return to India. Similarly you start from this again going.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's possible if you can fly this way, underneath.
Prabhupāda: But where is the underneath?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See Prabhupāda, we weren't asking that issue. That's not the question we were asking.
Prabhupāda: What is that issue?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you've explained, if it's a lotus petal, then you can fly around it. That's all right. Then the answer is there. But if there's no lotus petal and it's simply flat, then it's a problem. That a problem.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't say flat.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've pictured it like that. There's some defect in our picture. If you recall, there's a picture we drew...
Prabhupāda: So rectify it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, well how?
Prabhupāda: That is the explanation. Petal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See it doesn't say petal anywhere in the Bhāgavatam. It doesn't say Bhārata-varṣa is a lotus petal.
Upendra: Neither does it say it's flat, though.
Bhaktivedanta Book Trust
All of what Srila Prabhupada states and all of what the shastra states must be taken into account, regardless of if it can be immediately reconciled or not. Of course full understanding of the cosmos is not immediate—this is symptomatic of imperfect perception. We should not be so impassioned to seeing something that we begin to conceive it outside of the parameters of the truth about it—the shastras. For example, In the ISKCON article “Flat Earth/ Sailing to Jambudvipa” is a sensible conceptualization of the earth region in relation to Jambudvipa: “The previous image from Vedic Cosmos of the globe-shaped Earth floating on Jambūdvīpa's salt water ocean would perhaps appear more credible and acceptable if it simply depicted the continents of Earth as lying flat on the salt water ocean, not floating like a ball on top of it. The correct depiction of Earth lying flat will resonate with the soul's innate comprehension and intuition of the truth of Krishna's creation. Such a depiction would actually correspond with our perception of reality; for as we fly or sail over land and oceans we find Earth to be perfectly flat in all directions. There is no observable or measurable curvature of the Earth anywhere.”
Stated above is that “Such a depiction would actually correspond with our perception of reality...” What must be reiterated is not to become carried away with our perception of reality. The Bhagavatam describes a gigantic, mountain of gold rooted in Jambudvipa and standing high in the sky, but by a “perception of reality” it is not there. Surely, intelligence tells us that we should not merely conclude that it is not there based on our “perception of reality.” Also, despite that our observation may be flatness, Srila Prabhupada has given the dimension of a lotus petal as a guide to understand the shape of the earth.
Also stated above in the ISKCON article is “The correct depiction of Earth lying flat will resonate with the soul's innate comprehension and intuition of the truth of Krishna's creation.”
It is necessary to point out that according to Srila Prabhupada, the earth is lying in many ways—not just flat. But moreover, Srila Prabhupada has said, “No, we don’t say flat.” So shall what is contrary to Srila Prabhupada’s transcendental vision resonate with the soul's innate comprehension and intuition of the truth of Krishna's creation? We must accept the unavoidable limitations in using three-dimensional elements to design the Vedic planetarium, but we must also keep in mind that these mere three-dimensions do not encompass the full array of actual cryptic multi-dimensional aspects of the earth and the rest of the cosmos (“contradictory” simultaneous flatness, roundness, etc.).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you've explained, if it's a lotus petal, then you can fly around it. That's all right. Then the answer is there. But if there's no lotus petal and it's simply flat, then it's a problem. That a problem.
Prabhupāda: No, we don’t say flat.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've pictured it like that. There's some defect in our picture. If you recall, there's a picture we drew...
Prabhupāda: So rectify it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, well how?
Prabhupāda: That is the explanation. Petal.
Here Srila Prabhupada has stated, “No, we don’t say flat” and has clearly pointed out the explanation: Petal. There it is. There needn’t be quibbling with the problem of flatness. At this point the devotees were at an impasse for determining the dimensions of Bharata-varsha, but Srila Prabhupada, the guru, the one who has translated the entirety of the very Vedic literature that we are consulting, and one who is equipped with transcendental vision, has provided a simple explanation which some doubt because they have not seen it anywhere in the Bhagavatam. But they have no better explanation, and without Srila Prabhupada’s advice, they would otherwise have nothing. If anyone were going to comment on the dilemma, surely Srila Prabhupada’s comment shall be of first consideration. Guru, sadhu, shastra. Not that we should just step over the guru as a mere ordinary person with an ordinary opinion, as some new “authorities” have virtually done.
All in all we observe what appear to be numerous cryptic dimensional characteristics which we must have faith that Lord Chaitanya will reveal to us. Again, we are dealing with multi-dimensional aspects which just do not fit into a simple three-dimensional concept. As it is stated in the ISKCON article: “However, since we can't go there, and since we can't see it, we have to take the idea only.” As Srila Prabhupada says, "There is no argument." “One can't present a different version to what Sukadeva Goswami is describing. One can believe or not believe, but one has to present it as it is described.” Yes, but this includes Srila Prabhupada’s descriptions—not just shastra. Any contradiction that we see between them we must consider to be due to our own limitations—not Srila Prabhupada’s. This is because we are incapable of presenting understandings that are superior to Srila Prabhupada’s. We must renounce an obstinacy to confirm a mere two or three-dimensional limitation for the earth and its greater components—Jambudvipa, bhu-mandala, etc. for personal gratification. Furthermore, establishing the Vedic bhu-mandala understanding is a very controversial undertaking already. It behooves proponents of the Vedic version to avoid undermining the credibility of the concept by disregarding the enigmatic complexity of earth’s dimensions.
In a letter to Madhava dasa, in Vrndavana, on October, 1976 to Boston, Srila Prabhupada writes:
“My dear Madhava,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 22nd Sept. 1976 and have noted the contents. Regarding the details of the universe, be satisfied by reading only the Bhagavatam. What is the use of reading other books—you are not going there. Some portion of the earth is flat. When you stand in any place you see flat, so for us to some extent it appears flat, but it is round.”
We must accept both the authority of Veda and its authorized representative: SB 3.16.23 —not one or the other.
Another part of the July 5, 1977, Vrndavana discussion about Bhu-mandala:
Prabhupāda: I answered it. You people say like that, so which is correct? Flat or round?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will say "What does the Bhāgavatam say?"
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may reply to us, "All right, we are rascals. So please tell us what is the fact."
Prabhupāda: That is, we are...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he's asking. What should be shown? Actually we're a little stumped by... I mean...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have proper answer as far as possible.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We just read... We got a version from South India, and we've even found that there are different conceptions of what the Bhāgavata is saying. But the Purāṇas, they give some Puranic references.
Bhakti-prema: It is written the world... The earth is round and flat.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bhakti-prema: Earth is round and flat both, together.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhakti-prema: First we should reply it is acintya. This should be the reply. "Inconceivable."
Yaśodā-nandana: If it is inconceivable, then they will say how we can conceive it?
Prabhupāda: Take the version of Bhāgavatam.
Bhakti-prema: Everything we conceived, that is wrong?
Prabhupāda: Everything you conceived, that is wrong. Yes. Therefore inconceivable.
Here Bhakti-prema Swami has posited that the earth is round and flat both, together, and Srila Prabhupada has said, “Yes.” But Srila Prabhupada has previously stated, “No, we don’t say flat” so there seems to be a contradiction. By way of ordinary contemplation it is impossible to comprehend this particular kind of simultaneous roundness and flatness. Srila Prabhupada’s intent is to get us to understand this. Therefore he follows with the statements “Everything you conceived, that is wrong. Yes. Therefore inconceivable.”
* “No, we don’t say flat.” —Srila Prabhupada.
