BY: ROCANA DASA
Mar 21, CANADA (SUN) — Studying Srila Prabhupada's conversations with ISKCON leaders.
Today's Talks was inspired by Srila Prabhupada's room conversation of May 9, 1975 in Perth, Australia with Carol Cameron from the University of West Australia. You can listen to the audio or read the transcript here.
Joining Srila Prabhupada and Carol Cameron in this room conversation were Amogha, Jayadharma, Ganesa, Srutakirti, and Paramahamsa,
In this room conversation we have a young, obviously intelligent and attractive Ph.D candidate in anthropology interviewing Srila Prabhupada for her thesis on Hindu and Buddhist mysticism in the West. Srila Prabhupada immediately mentions that anthropology is based on Darwinism, and takes note of the fact that she's wearing a Christian cross necklace, indicating that she's Christian.
Throughout the conversation, Carol displays her academic nature as well as her intelligence. To a large degree she is submissive and courteous, despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada was amazingly intense in answering all her questions.
She begins by asking why he came to the West, and Srila Prabhupada starts the whole conversation off by saying that the reason he came is he wanted to know why it was that the Christians claim to be very civilized but at the same time they're killing so many animals, even though Christ said "thou shalt not kill". For 2,000 years all they've been doing is killing animals and each other. He asks her, why is this the fact? Of course, this is not what she expected as a answer. Srila Prabhupada bypassed all the fluff and niceties and went right to the crux of the problem here in the West. He wouldn't let her take the subject anywhere else, and said that the reason Christ said "don't kill" is because they were killers. He gives the example that you don't tell a person that he shouldn't steal if he isn't a thief to begin with.
In the audio you can hear how she's a little taken aback by this whole subject. Srila Prabhupada points out that Christ told the Christians not to kill, and the first thing they did was to kill the instructor. You can tell that even though she's wearing a cross, she's quite attracted to eastern philosophical thought. Otherwise, why would she be writing a thesis on eastern religions? Srila Prabhupada doesn't consider the fact that she appears sweet and sincere, but sticks to the point of killing animals human beings, and says that's been their business for 2,000 years - big slaughterhouses and big wars.
Srila Prabhupada said that if they actually accepted the instructions of Christ, a sign that they're really religious, then they would follow the instructions of the acarya, and Christ is the founder/acarya of Christianity. Srila Prabhupada points to the cross around her neck and asks, how is it that Christians use the symbol of a cross when it's actually the machine that killed Christ, who was nailed to the cross? She responds that the cross is really the resurrection symbol, not, as Srila Prabhupada said, the 'machine that was used to kill Christ'. But Srila Prabhupada wouldn't accept that. He said you killed Christ even though you like to accuse the Jewish people of killing him. But in reality, the Christians killed Christ.
Srila Prabhupada keeps coming back to the fact that unless you follow the instructions of the acarya, you're not really a follower of Christ, and the systematic killing is a sign that Christians are not following the acarya. But the anthropologist knows the Bhagavad-gita, and she replied that Arjuna was instructed to kill, in an organized way, even his own relatives. Srila Prabhupada would not be deterred by this, and kept sticking to his point that the people calling themselves Christians have been killing for 2,000 years, and they never accepted Christ's simple instruction.
Carol then tried to ask Srila Prabhupada about what school of Vedanta he belonged to. Srila Prabhupada said there's no question of philosophy unless you accept a simple instruction. She said the real instruction is love, but Srila Prabhupada said you can't discuss philosophy unless you follow these instructions. You can't understand the concept of love if you're accustomed to killing because that shows you're a fool and rascal, and a fool and rascal cannot become a philosopher.
Srila Prabhupada then explains the concept of love as it is presented in his Nectar of Instruction:
dadati pratigrhnati
bhunkte bhojayate caiva
guhyam akhyati prcchati
ca sad-vidham priti-laksanam
There's always a reciprocal exchange in love, and one exchange is that I serve you something nice to eat, just like all lovers do. The reason Christians slaughter animals is that they want to eat them, but you don't show your love for God by offering him something that is as abominable as meat. There are six such reciprocal exchanges outlined in this sloka.
Because she's obviously very attractive, Srila Prabhupada says that just because a person says that you're beautiful, therefore I love you, doesn't mean it's really love. Actually, it's a sign of sense gratification and lust. Keeping their lust a secret while at the same time they're trying to convince you that they love you, that's not love at all, but lust.
Lately we have been discussion the goings-on at New Vrindaban, and I can't help but relate their circumstances to what Srila Prabhupada is saying here. We've now all had to face the fact that at New Vrindaban there was as lot of killing going on, at the behest or the sanction of the leader, who was obviously not following Srila Prabhupada's instructions. Coming from his own Christian background, he was still in the mood of killing. In fact, after he sanctioned the killing of two of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who were murdered there, he adopted his infamous Christian program. I find this historical fact quite relevant to what Srila Prabhupada is saying in this room conversation. One can never even imagine that Srila Prabhupada would sanction such behaviour, yet Kirtanananda and his followers did as Srila Prabhupada is saying the Christians did, which was to think, 'it's alright for us to kill like this'.
As we recently heard from one of Kirtanananda's disciples, who is now analyzing his own experiences during that era, he explains how Kirtanananda completely misunderstood the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita. The principle teaching of Bhagavad-Gita is that the only reason Arjuna engaged in fighting is because he had a direct instruction from God to do so, and therefore it became devotional service. But no one is allowed to kill unless they have direct instruction. And our instruction is coming through parampara, which of course means through Srila Prabhupada. And we see by this conversation that Srila Prabhupada was completely against killing. In fact, he frequently used that as his main argument when he addressed someone representing Christianity.
Just within the last week, I was told a fascinating story by one of my Godbrothers, which he heard directly from ISKCON guru/sannyasi, Navayogendra Swami. It seems that back in the 1980's, while the Swami was in Africa, a member of the New Vrindaban community unexpectedly showed up in Kenya. After some time he confessed to the Swami that he was on the run from the law because he had murdered his wife. In fact, he said that he had shot her in the head while she was chanting japa. He felt that he had gotten the sanction to do this from Kirtanananda. But instead of informing the authorities, this "Kashmiri Brahman" so-called Swami told him that he could hide out in Kenya for a while, then suggested that he go to India because he could easily evade the law there. He apparently didn't even preach to him that it was the wrong thing to murder someone, for whatever reason. So there's another dead body from New Vrindaban.
Going back to the conversation Srila Prabhupada was having, he pushed his guest, Carol, and asked her who she felt the creator was. She admitted that she feels it was an impersonal creator. Srila Prabhupada said what kind of philosophy is this, that you say there's an impersonal creator? The whole concept of creation is a personal attribute. To demonstrate, Srila Prabhupada lifted up the bell that was on his desk and said, we know that someone knows the art of creating a bell just by looking at the bell, and we know it was a person. He said that hers was a false philosophy -- God is a person, and it's only out of ignorance that you're saying it's impersonal. If you want to clear up your ignorance, then you have to hear from him, a learned person. She seems to expect this argument, and gives the impersonalist explanation that the impersonal Brahman has adopted personal attributes. But she says "he" in reference to the impersonal. Srila Prabhupada immediately points out, how can "he" be impersonal? The pronoun "he" indicates a person. She again gives Srila Prabhupada some intelligent feedback, saying that it's really the intellect and the emotion that is what's involved in calling the impersonal, "he". Srila Prabhupada responds by saying you can't use emotion if you're a philosopher. Emotion indicates sentimentality, and philosophy is there in order to counteract the tendency to be sentimental. Finally Srila Prabhupada said basically, you don’t have a clear idea of who God is, you only have a vague idea.
Carol appears to understand something about Mayavadi philosophy, and she resorts to explaining that within her heart, she knows something but she can't express it. But Srila Prabhupada says that factually, if you can't express what's in your heart, then what you have is not perfect. You have to be able to express what's in your heart, and not to be able to is only an indication that your knowledge is imperfect.
He goes on to say something very profound, that emotion is useless when it comes to the science of Krsna Consciousness. Emotion is only relevant on the levels of very high, ecstatic love, pure Bhakti, but not in the philosophical aspects. He emphasizes that you can't say you're devoted to God unless you know who God is. First of all, Krsna gives all sorts of philosophy before he asks Arjuna to surrender to him. Then he says to Carol, what if I asked you to surrender to me at the very first meeting? She said well yeah, I'll surrender. But Srila Prabhupada says I don't think so, because you're not fully aware of my abilities and qualities. Therefore, why should you surrender? You can't blindly surrender. And once you have surrendered, the emotion is good, but before you surrender you have to rely on philosophy, logic, reason and understanding of the philosophy.
This concept takes us back to the whole New Vrindaban phenomenon. In fact, throughout the Zonal Acarya period - and even today - we see this dynamic in the movement. Many disciples of the so-called big gurus can only exhibit their dedication in a sentimental, emotional way. They can't apply the philosophy to analyze and understand the actions of these so-called gurus. If they did, they wouldn't be following them. And when you question their actions based on philosophy, you just get a sentimental, emotional response from the disciples. This can be very dangerous to anyone who is actually using the philosophy to see what's going on.
Carol then asks, isn't intellect helpful in understanding God? Srila Prabhupada says intellect means that you're not an animal, that animals have no intellect to understand God, but humans do. That's what distinguishes a human being from an animal. Human beings want to know who God is, what is the cosmic manifestation, and what is the aim of life, but an animal never asks these kinds of questions.
Srila Prabhupada then goes through a very expert presentation of the difference between a dog and a human, and ends his explanation by asking Carol, why is it you're going for a Doctorate in anthropology? He could apparently see that she was sincere and intelligent. And at this point, she admits that she's having a hard time reconciling the fact that she's interested in what is love of God while at the same time studying anthropology, but she sees it as an occupation, a way to make a living. Srila Prabhupada challenges by saying, but you have to accept Darwinian theory in order to study anthropology and it's a false theory. Anthropology means speculating based on Darwinian theory, and Darwinian theory is very unscientific. So our guest has come before Srila Prabhupada representing these two false religious philosophies: Christianity and Darwinism.
She then has to resort to a new-age concept of love, saying that you have to remove ignorance by love. But Srila Prabhupada says "Love is far away. First of all you be educated." She asks how, in what way? Srila Prabhupada says you have to get the right knowledge, that's how you become educated, and that begins with inquiring. The inquiry is why are you being forced to grow old? Why are you forced into miserable conditions? You're a beautiful woman, but time is going to force you to become an old woman. You don't like that, do you? She agrees. Srila Prabhupada even goes so far as to say that her flesh will become flabby and lose its luster. She intelligently responds by saying well, suffering and pain leads people to God. Srila Prabhupada brilliantly responds by saying it's the law, and if you don’t' inquiry why you're suffering then you're just dull-headed. You have to inquire.
He goes back to his dog analogy, where a dog is chained up and the master can kill him at any time, but he doesn't protest. As Srila Prabhupada says:
"He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life."
Next there is a brilliant mini-lecture by Srila Prabhupada on the subject of inquiry wherein he brings in the Darwinian theory, where they're speculating on huge gaps of millions of years. We're living less than a hundred years now, but we're doing all this speculating, and this is a big bluff by Darwin. Anybody who accepts Darwin is just being totally bluffed, and there's no knowledge there at all.
Then our guest Carol asks Srila Prabhupada, can you ever have perfect knowledge? And Srila Prabhupada replies yes, you can have perfect knowledge. And you can have it immediately, because he's ready to give it. You just have to be ready to receive. But the teacher has to be perfect. If the teacher is bogus, then you get bogus knowledge. Again, this brings to mind Kirtanananda, who was a bogus teacher, and his whole community got bogus knowledge. And based on that, people died and one went to jail for the rest of his life, what to speak of the reactions that haunt those who participated based on bogus knowledge.
Carol then questions whether Srila Prabhupada's actions are perfect, and Srila Prabhupada says, "Oh, yes." Our action is that we're thinking of God by chanting Hare Krsna, and we're doing this because just like the physician says take the medicine, we take it and we're cured. She responds by saying well, once you start chanting, then do you stop judging the guru. Srila Prabhupada says no, but once you have concluded that this person is perfect, and in Srila Prabhupada's case of course that's a fact, then you can just simply follow. She immediately replies that this is complete faith. Srila Prabhupada says yes, just like a child, he accepts the father and mother as having perfect knowledge. Therefore the child is constantly inquiring about their surroundings. When the mother or father says this is a table, the child accepts it as a table, then the child can go through their life declaring with confidence that 'this is a table'. But if you accept knowledge from a person like Darwin, just like you do in anthropology, then the whole thing is imperfect and you're then teaching imperfect knowledge.
Carol says that she doubts that there's anyone who's perfect, trying to defend her obvious dedication to this profession/philosophy. Srila Prabhupada says well, people want to be cheated, so you have become the perfect cheater. That's another thing. Take a doctorate degree and be a perfect cheater. Where on the other hand you could accept from Krsna, who's a perfect person and who is God, or you could accept from Christ, but you don't follow him. Then you accept from Darwin, who's imperfect. So, whose fault is this? Is it the perfect person's fault, or your fault? He closed the point by saying:
"You don't like to hear from the perfect person. You want to hear from a humbug bogus person. That is the defect."
Following this was a long silence, after which Carol thanked Srila Prabhupada. He simply said "Hare Krsna". One of the devotees said "All glories to Srila Prabhupada!", then Srila Prabhupada asks that she be given some prasadam.
By this point Carol obviously doesn't want anymore of the heavy instruction that Srila Prabhupada's been handing out since the beginning of the conversation, so she says that she's been listening to the Radha Krishna Temple album produced by George Harrison, and she had a hard time finding this album. Srila Prabhupada becomes very sweet and stays on thesubject of George Harrison and the album, complimenting her for being an intelligent person. He said that she should study Krsna Consciousness and this will really benefit her. His basic message is give up this anthropology degree, which I doubt very much she did, and if you're going to follow Christ, then don't kill anymore.
One of the devotees, Jayadharma, brings up the fact that Christians say Christ was simply referring to not killing human beings. Srila Prabhupada said well, that's still not a very good qualification -- if you're telling someone not to kill human beings, that means they have been killing human beings. Then there was some back and forth conversation about whether or not it was actually Jesus who said not to kill, or if it was one of the commandments from Moses. But Srila Prabhupada said Christ accepted the Old Testament teachings, and the Bible's made up of those instructions, and he said follow the instructions of the Bible.
Then there was some discussion on how the Christians have really changed their Biblical teachings so many times, and they actually admit that they've changed their scriptures. Srila Prabhupada asks well, how do you get right information if they've changed things? And he explains that we don't change anything - we follow the Sampradaya Acaryas. He mentions Ramanujacarya and Madhvacarya, and before that there were many other Acaryas. Of course, Srila Prabhupada himself is a Sampradaya Acarya, and our business as disciples is to strictly follow what Srila Prabhupada has stated in conversations like this one and in his commentaries on the revealed scriptures, as well as what he exemplified by his mood and actions. And we should not change anything.
Finally, Srila Prabhupada says a very interesting thing to the devotees about some letters that he instructed them to post. It appears this instruction was lost, so this is very relevant to his message that we should just follow the instructions of the Acarya. The devotees say that they hadn't yet posted the letters, but would do so that night. But Srila Prabhupada didn't let them off the hook, and said you mean there's not letter boxes around here? The devotees said no, none close. Srila Prabhupada said posting at night is useless; you have to post before 8:00, when they pick-up. He knew exactly when they'd pick-up mail. Ganesh asked another question to try and change the subject, but Srila Prabhupada ends the whole conversation with this profound statement:
"Now the Krsna consciousness movement is going on in my presence. Now after my departure, if you do not do this, then it is lost. If you go on as you are doing now, then it will go on. But if you stop..."
And that's the end of the conversation. We can see that this is the real reason Krsna Consciousness has essentially slowed to a near stop in North America. Even though there may be some activity in regards to building a few big temples, primarily for the Indian devotees, the preaching has nearly stopped. Sadly, instead of trying to revive Srila Prabhupada's mood, the GBC have empowered a vaisya to revive Krsna Consciousness in North America.
