BY: ROCANA DASA
Jan 10, CANADA (SUN) — Studying Srila Prabhupada's conversations with ISKCON leaders.
Today's Talks is inspired by Srila Prabhupada's morning walk on October 20, 1975 in Durban, South Africa. You can listen to the audio or read the transcript here.
This morning walk has some unique aspects, primarily due to the fact that Harikesa and Pusta Krsna are the only senior men joining Srila Prabhupada on the walk. They were the only ones who participated in the conversation, with the exception of an Indian gentleman and an unnamed devotee, who asked a question that Srila Prabhupada didn't respond to in detail.
Srila Prabhupada begins the walk with his familiar theme of the failure of scientists, primarily those engaged in freezing dead bodies in hopes that they'll be able to thaw them out whenever science says it's found a cure for what killed them. Srila Prabhupada calls this "childish activities".
Pusta Krsna asks what's the Vedic definition of science, and Srila Prabhupada said there's no experimentation in Vedic science: it's jnana and vijnana, knowledge and realization. Srila Prabhupada actually said that experimental science is condemned. In the Vedas, everything is established truth. He gives the example of how the sun rises on the eastern side. That's established, and there's no experimentation and no possibility of changing it. Another example that's often given is that in the Vedas, it's stated that cow dung is pure, even though every other kind of feces is considered to be highly contaminated. Srila Prabhupada says you could experiment if you wanted and prove this to be true, or you could just accept it and save yourself the trouble of experimenting.
Over the years, we find that the devotees are getting more and more into experimenting rather than just carefully studying Srila Prabhupada's teachings in an attempt to find out exactly what the truth is, then following it. We can call the Zonal Acarya system 'an experiment', and New Vrindaban was often called an experiment. One might also call the Gopi Bhava Club an experiment, along with the many other philosophical deviations attempted by the leadership which weren't in line with Srila Prabhupada's teachings. The devotees were all experimenting to see what would happen, and in every case, it was a disaster. Srila Prabhupada's disciples were the guinea pigs in these big experiments instituted by the leaders. As in any lab environment, many of the test subjects didn't survive in ISKCON long enough to see the end of the experiment.
Srila Prabhupada said all the research and development around trying to cure diseases is just a hoax, because they'll never cure disease. You can use Krsna consciousness to stop disease, but scientists can't stop it, because disease is part of Krsna's arrangement in this material world.
We know that Srila Prabhupada calls Krsna consciousness a scientific movement, and one has to carefully follow the formulas set down by the real scientists, the Sampradaya Acaryas. Some individuals are attracted to experimentation because they seek the 'thrill of discovery'. Of course, if such persons simply tested themselves against the absolute model set down by Srila Prabhupada, they'd have thrills aplenty.
Srila Prabhupada goes on to say that it is also condemned to try and prolong life. He gives the example of trees, saying what's the use of prolonging life when life is so full of suffering… you're just prolonging the suffering. All these medical arrangements to prolong the life of a body through disease have no benefit whatsoever. It's interesting to note here that Pusta Krsna left Srila Prabhupada's movement and became a doctor. In fact, later on in the walk, Srila Prabhupada goes on about how pigs think they're happy, and they get fatty. He says that part of the whole concept of becoming fat is a sign that you think you can enjoy. Interestingly, a few years ago Pusta Krsna came up to the Ratha Yatra here in Vancouver, Canada and he was very fat, as were members of his family. Whether or not Srila Prabhupada was offering an insight into what was going to be taking place in the future is hard to know, but the thread of connection is certainly interesting.
Srila Prabhupada quickly gets into the whole idea that anyone who's trying to find happiness in this material world is a number one fool. In fact, he repeats the word "fool" 24 times in this short walk, along with other familiar descriptive terms such as "rascal", and so on.
He goes on for a long time based on this whole idea that anyone who thinks they're happy is a fool. Even those in the mode of goodness really can't achieve happiness. In fact, those who think they're in the mode of goodness and happy he says are in darkness. Playing devil's advocate, the two devotees on the walk really challenge Srila Prabhupada on this point, but he didn't give an inch and didn't make any exceptions. He said the only way to find happiness in the material world is to approach a bonafide guru and find out how to go to Krsna.
One devotee present asked Srila Prabhupada two questions, one after the other:
"Do I have to join your movement to be happy? Can I just take Krsna consciousness outside your movement?"
Srila Prabhupada simply answered "Yes."
The devotee repeats the question, "So there is no possibility of me being Krsna conscious outside your movement?", and Srila Prabhupada clarified by saying that you need to develop your Krsna consciousness with devotees. If you're all alone, it's very difficult. Community means many devotees. While he say no, you can't take Krsna consciousness outside of his movement, but he also doesn't say he approves of it nor does he encourage it.
So based on what we're hearing here, anyone who kicks devotees out of Srila Prabhupada's movement is depriving them of the opportunity to be Krsna consciousness by association with devotees that are in his mood. Srila Prabhupada gives the example of Arjuna, who's in so much anxiety and unhappy until he accepted Krsna as his guru. We find that Srila Prabhupada was right, it is very difficult to live outside the association of devotees. I'm sure many of our readers can verify that this is true.
Harikesa then says he looks around and sees people who are enjoying. Srila Prabhupada quickly responds and says because you're a fool, you're saying like that. This is proof that you're a fool. He goes so far as to say, "So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate," which brought laughter. We can see this as another indication that Srila Prabhupada has vision into the future, because we know that Harikesa did this very same thing. He left Srila Prabhupada's movement when he was in a position of great power, taking millions of dollars with him so that he could enjoy. So Srila Prabhupada was right, it's difficult to estimate just how foolish Harikesa is. In fact, it's very interesting that Harikesa then goes into saying, in jest, that a well-known guru at the time, Meher Baba, said 'don't worry, be happy'. Of course, Srila Prabhupada also calls him a mudha and a fool. Srila Prabhupada knew that Meher Baba had died in a motor accident, something the devotees didn't know. Twice, Srila Prabhupada says "Don't worry, I am going to die by motor accident."
It appears that the devotees were walking either on or beside a golf course, and Srila Prabhupada asks what are these raised sections. The devotees tell him that's where the golfers tee off. Srila Prabhupada said what about this other section, and they said, well that's the women's area. Srila Prabhupada asks "no equal rights?"
He then clarified that actually being happy is everybody's aim, but we want to be permanently happy. That requires the knowledge that he can provide, and the only way for a devotee to be happy is to be absorbed in service to Krsna. You have to make zero all other desires. Anyone who tries to be happy any other way, he's not a devotee.
Pusta Krsna says that people are trying to make money to enjoy the material life, which of course he ends up doing himself, becoming very fatty. Srila Prabhupada says what is this term, 'making money?' You can't make money, you can only work like an ass to get money. This is where he introducing the hog to the conversation, saying that the hog is working hard so that he can eat stool, and he thinks he's happy, getting fatty. But do we think this is happiness? He actually repeats this a number of times, and says this is a psychology: when one thinks I'm happy, he gets fatty. Of course, we know some pretty fatty leaders in ISKCON who apparently think they're happy.
We know that within ISKCON at the point in time when this morning walk took place, what to speak of after Srila Prabhupada's departure, the leaders were sending the devotees out just to make money. The devotees on the street had to work very hard to do it, and our ability to fully practice Srila Prabhupada's spiritual program became less and less because we just didn't have time. Other than getting your rounds done and showing up for the morning program, or part of it, there was little time to study Srila Prabhupada's books or discuss what we'd read, or write down our realizations. So in a sense, we became victims of this whole principle of making more money than was required. And the more we made money, the more and more opulent the prasadam became, and devotees began sleeping more, and getting diseased and fatty.
Srila Prabhupada goes on to use the phrase "'Fools rush in where angels dare not.' That is the proof." By way of example, he points to a sign along the way that says, 'do not enter'. What kind of fool would enter, even though the sign says 'do not enter?' Krsna says there's no happiness in the material world, so you're going to ignore Krsna, and try to find happiness in the material world? Then Srila Prabhupada says in order to taste happiness, you have to suffer. This is what material happiness is. He points to the sand trap on the golf course, noting that in order for them to enjoy golfing, they have to avoid this sand trap. When the ball goes in there, then they start suffering.
Next the topic goes around to religion in the western countries, which is also very interesting. Srila Prabhupada says there is no religion in the West, because religion means surrender to God. They don't know who God is, so how can they surrender? Instead, they think that to be prosperous, and he uses the term "aristocracy", means to go back to "doghead". The devotees say what about the Pope? Srila Prabhupada says, "He's another bogus man." Harikesa replies that when the Pope comes out on the balcony, thousands of people cheer and scream. Srila Prabhupada says "small animals praising the big animals, that's all," but he makes a concession to the Christians saying, "At least they say something about God. They are not zero, but they have no clear conception of God." He closes the point saying "Bhagavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead."
Because there's only two of them, the devotees take quite a bit of liberty in challenging Srila Prabhupada in a way that will entice him to give his expert answers to their questions. Srila Prabhupada goes back to Harikesa and asks, you were with this Meher Baba? Harikesa says no, I was with Maharishi. Srila Prabhupada responds, "Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that?" Harikesa replies "Thirty-five dollars." Srila Prabhupada asks what is this mantra, and Harikesa replies that it's "Aing". Harikesa explains that he was told not to tell anybody else what mantra was given to him, or else it would be ruined. Srila Prabhupada immediately points out that this mean Maharishi is also ruined, if the mantra is ruined. Harikesa then goes into a big explanation about how in the end, he discovered everyone had the same mantra. Srila Prabhupada says, "Just see how he was cheating you. This is such a great cheater, and he has opened university? Just see." Srila Prabhupada said it's the same mentality as the scientists -- they don’t give a clear explanation of anything, and then they cheat you.
From listening to the audio, it seems that Harikesa is kind of annoying Srila Prabhupada by continuing on with his talk about Maharishi, saying that Maharishi was given a large dose of LSD and nothing happened to him. His followers said that's because he was 'already there'. Srila Prabhupada says well what does "there" mean? Harikesa says, "the ultimate". And Srila Prabhupada replies, "Hell?" Of course, as time passed we discovered that one of the big Zonal Acaryas, Jayatirtha, went back to not only taking LSD, but preaching that it was a special arrangement by Krsna to give us a break in our spiritual development. It appears that he also went to hell.
While it's included in the transcript, the audio ends just before the last question Srila Prabhupada asks: "the black man is not allowed to marry a white woman?" This is perhaps another example of how the audio was edited to eliminate 'problematic' statements made by the pure devotee.
