"What if the two statements "in play", i.e. the one below and the other that was introduced earlier (the famous "I want all of my disciples to become spiritual master), were meant to generally encourage all of SP's disciples to feel that by spreading his teachings they could guide the world -- in general terms?
But to specifically become diksha gurus -- as we have at present within ISKCON -- is a different concept.
Even temple president -- even senior devotee is given more regard than a devotee without a "formal post".
Diksha guru in ISKCON for the most part means formal spiritual leader.
Even if you, ABC Prabhu, and you, XYZ Maharaj, do NOT agree with this outlook, it ought to be admitted that if we balance these two statements with the majority of Prabhupada's comments regarding the role of women in society, the conclusion shouldn't be so opaque.
Prabhupada on many more occasions opined that a woman's place is in the home, as "grihini", housewife.
Shouldn't we encourage that vision of his? Instead of encouraging the egalitarian concept of, in Srila Prabhupada's words, "the puffed up conception of womanly life"?
These two statements do not, in my mind, conclusively prove that Prabhupada envision women as formal diksha gurus. What it seems to me is that some of us want to rationalize the adoption of an outlook that greatly varies from the one that Prabhupada clearly expressed.
The quotations in that regard -- that have already been presented here -- are many. But they are being deliberately ignored in order to foist this egalitarian worldview on our society. That's disingenuous, and a disservice to Srila Prabhupada and the ancient tradition that he desired be revived in India and transplanted worldwide.
Eschewing Indian dress, eschewing tilak, and encouraging the "free mixing of men and women" in society runs counter to Prabhupada's well known teachings.
It is disingenuous to suggest that one or two comments he made support this outlook. This is akin to the ritvik system of initiation adherents, who have introduced something that Prabhupada never once mentioned in any conversation, purport, class/lecture, by quoting Prabhupada himself!
How can one letter, or numerous references to the importance of purity, change the ancient tradition of "guru shishya parampara"?
Similarly, Prabhupada time and again opined and instructed that a woman's duty is to serve her husband by cooking, cleaning, stitching - all household activities. Thereafter "mothering and grandmothering" are the natural activities of women.
Prabhupada is famous for his having repeated his opinions in this regard despite being confronted by "liberal, egalitarian" members of the Western press, during several interviews that were printed in BTG, Prabhupada's conversations books, etc.
Is our conclusion now that Prabhupada somehow had a separate opinion, that a woman should leave the grihasta ashram and become a "traveling itinerant preacher"?
That's exactly what is being proposed here! And that is, in other words, a sannyasi! And we all know that Prabhupada and tradition forbid sannyas for women!
The mother is the first guru! She teaches the child how to do almost everything, when the child -- all humans are born in ignorance -- cannot eat, defecate, converse, understand, etc.
Does this mean that women should be formal diksha gurus? If so, why is that NOT the vedic/vaishnava tradition? The answer is clear: there are varying duties for the various members of society, in the varnashram concept of society. Prabhupada propagated that society be based on varnashram. ISKCON too is a society.
Prabhupada wrote that "all of my disciples are pure devotees". However, we all well know that many of his disciples feel victims to maya's various allurements! Several of ISKCON's top leaders -- and numerous members of ISKCON "middle leadership" -- and even ordinary "rank and file" direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada, "fell down".
So such quotations from Prabhupada have to be viewed as "statements of encouragement", and not "statements of ideology".
ABC Prabhu and XYZ Maharaj: I for one am NOT at all convinced by the logic that you both have been presenting here. In fact, I'm disappointed that you desire to ignore both the ancient traditions of our parampara, and Prabhupada's numerous teachings regarding "ideal womanhood", aka "stri-dharma".
But what can I do? All I can do is "point out the obvious" and hope that you both will "have a rethink", since I know that you are both highly intelligent.
> > Could it be that we got it all wrong and he didn't really include women
> > as his disciples after all? Who did he refer to with statements such as
> > "All my disciples?" If it were only the men, then does it mean that he
> > actually din not really accept women as his disciples, except in name
> > only? Or, do we accept his statement, as it is?
>
Actually there is more from that Vyasa-puja lecture in London, on Aug 22,
> 1973:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My dear sons and daughters . . . Anyone who is coming to Krishna
> consciousness, he's not ordinary living being. Anyone who is connected
> with our movement, he's not ordinary living being. Actually, he's
> liberated soul. And I am very much hopeful that my disciples who are now
> participating today, even if I die, my movement will not stop, I am very
> much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so
> seriously . . . To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing.
> You'll have to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone
> should become spiritual master. . . . Remain always a servant of your
> spiritual master and present the thing as you have heard. You'll be
> spiritual master. . . . So I hope that all of you, men, women, boys and
> girls, become spiritual master.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Your servant, ABC das
> > On Oct 11, 2012, at 2:06 PM, ABC Das wrote:
> >
> > >> I think I will stick with Prabhupada's direct statements
> > >
> > > Here is another one of those:
> > >
> > > "To become spiritual master is not very difficult thing. You'll have
> > > to become spiritual master. You, all my disciples, everyone should
> > > become spiritual master."
> > >
> > > Vyasa-puja lecture, London, Aug 22, 1973
