The Fifth Veda and Unanswered Questions, Part 2
BY: BAHUSHIRA DASA (ACBSP)
Mar 14, CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) —
Then two weeks later in a Los Angeles lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam, on 7-3-72 Srila Prabhupada again says:
"He is already fallen from Vaikuntha Planet, he is fallen in this material world. And he is again trying to make progress."
While still in L.A,. in a Bhagavtam lecture on May 20, 1972, Srila Prabhupada emphasizes:
"They're fallen because they wanted to gratify their senses. They cannot remain in Vaikuntha World. In the Vaikuntha World, only the one, the Supreme Lord, His senses should be satisfied not anyone elses. That is called bhakti."
In a letter to Upendra dasa, October 27, 1969, Srila Prabhupada wrote:
"Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is Vaikunthaloka, has the chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy."
Acaryavilasa/Balavidya minimizes every reference and quote from Srila Prabhupada to fit his Causal Ocean philosophy. The white wash tactics of using words like 'non-sequitur' or 'straw man' when analyzing an opponent's points cannot be used too often or it becomes redundant. This approach is not just being used only on me, but with Rupanuga dasa's article also. How telling this tactic is, which appears sophisticated at first, but then becomes repetitious.
Anyone who does not follow his view is offensive in his eyes. Yes, he knows how to dice and slice a subject, but his approach leaves much to be desired. When some quotes of Srila Prabhupada are given he acts as though there is nothing to be grasped and they are of no value whatsoever unless it points to the Causal Ocean and fits into his presentation. In Balavidya's mind, the Bhagavatam verses I presented in my article, "Srimad Bhagavatam and the Fall of the Jiva, have no meaning; they only refer to the Causal Ocean in his mind.
As to how these verses relate to the fall of the jiva, Acaryavilasa has missed the point. The thrust of the article was showing that we have a lost relationship with Krsna, which we have to remember. Another point is that our spiritual body, our svarupa, is already there in the spiritual world, which is Vaikunthaloka or Goloka. Srila Prabhupada and Bhaktivinoda Thakur have stated that the satchitananda vigraha of the jiva is forgotten when we come to the material world. It is not lost, but it exists simultaneously, when the jiva is here in this world.
Acaryavilasa's overall approach to the Fall/No Fall issue is a brilliant example of circular reasoning about the jiva debate. This is how his circular reasoning goes:
1. We know that the scriptures, even when they are speaking about remembering Krsna, rejecting Krsna, or returning to Krsna, etc. actually mean something else, since all the acaryas state that the conditioned jiva was never with Krsna
2. Whenever the acaryas state that we have fallen down from the Lord's personal service, these statements must be taken in a different way in order to agree with sastra.
With respect to the questions that Acaryavilasa has not answered, they are:
- I asked him to show the readers any quote where Srila Prabhupada says the Causal Ocean or the Brahmajyoti is Vaiukuntha? He hasn't shown that yet.
- I asked him, can he give any sastra or quote from an acarya that says that the tatastha shakti jivas are only conditioned souls, and only in the material world or Causal Ocean? He hasn't done that, either.
- And a new bonus question! Can Acaryavilasa give any sastra or acarya's words that say that the svarupa of the jiva is lost in the Causal Ocean or waiting for the jiva to regain it there?
Acaryavilasa is fond of quoting one conclusion only. But Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter a second conclusion:
"Because he falls from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past (which Prabhupada just said was with Krsna) let us come to Krsna Consciousness and immediately join Krsna.
APPENDIX
AcaryaVilasa's hands must be itching to comment on these verses below. There is no mention of envy in Goloka in these verses, as he would say. We know that. That is not why I'm mentioning these verses. The point is, these verses are showing that the jiva soul can go to Goloka or the Vaikunthalokas, and stay for a while, after performing some devotional service, and then coming again back to this world. Then finally after perfecting his bhakti, he goes back to Goloka or the Vaikunthalokas and stays there, not to fall again. And yes, the word fall (patanam) is used in many of the verses, and the words again coming back (punar agatya) are used. That's why when one is going to quote an author, especially if he is a Shaktyavesa Avatara like Vyasadeva, he must know and read everything he wrote, not just what one likes.
I'm trying to balance these two views, but Balavidya only sees part of Vyasadeva's writings. So the Shaktyavesa Avatara, Vyasadeva has presented both views, fall/and no fall of the jiva, just like Srila Prabhupada and the other acaryas have shown. In conclusion, these verses from the fifth Veda i.e. the Puranas, hold their weight as authoritative evidence.
In Krsna Janma Khanda, Ch.126, Verse 59, Sri Radha is speaking to Sree Krsna:
Atyucchrito nipatanam prapnotyeva dhruvam prabho Aaraad vipatti bijam ca vaisnavanam vihimsanam
Oh Lord, after reaching extreme height, one certainly falls. The violence of the Vaisnavas results in misfortune.
In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 59, Yamaraja is speaking to Savitri (Mother of the Vedas)
Ghritapradiipam Haraye Kaartike yo dadaatica Palapramaanam varsam ca modate Harimandire
Whoever in the month of Kaartika offers a lamp of ghee to Hari enjoys in Vaikuntha (Hari Mandira) for as many years equivalent to the number of seconds (palas-a pala is 24 seconds) for which the lamp is burnt.
Verse 60:
Punah svayonim sampraapya Visnubhaktim labhed dhruvam Mahaa dhanaadhyah sa bhavec Chaksusmaanshcaiva diiptimaan
Verse 60: Born again, he certainly attains Vishnubhakti. He becomes immensely rich, endowed with clear vision and glory.
Chapter 27, verse 74:
Karoti Bhaarate yo hi Krsnajanmaastami vratam Sata janma krtaat paapaan mucyate naatra samshayah
He who performs the vrata of Krsna Janmaastamii, is relieved of the sins of hundreds of births. There is no doubt about it.
Verse 75:
Vaikunthe modate so'pi yava dindraas caturdasa Punah svayonim samprapya Krsnabhaktim labhed dhruvam
He enjoys in Vaikuntha for the reign of fourteen Indras and taking birth again, attains Krsna bhakti for certain.
Verse 81:
Sri Raamanavamim yo hi karoti Bhaarate narah Sapta manvantaram yaavan modate Vishnu mandire
Whoever celebrates Rama Navami in Bharat enjoys in Vaikuntha for seven Manvantaras.
Verse 82:
Punah svayonim sampraapya Raamabhaktim labhed dhruvam Jitendriyaanaam pravaro mahamsca dhaarmiko bhavet
He then takes birth again and obtains devotion to Rama for certain; he then becomes the best of those who control their senses and a great follower of dharma.
Verse 90:
Kaartike purnimaayaam ca krtvaa tu raasamandalam Gopaanaam shatakam krtvaa gopiinaam shatakam tathaa
Verse 91:
Shilaayaam pratimaayaam vaa SriiKrsnam Raadhaayaa saha Bhaarate puujayed dattvaa copacaaraani sodasha
Verse 92:
Bhaaratam punaraagatya Haribhaktim labhed dhruvam Goloke ca vaset so'pi yaavad vai brahmano vayah
Verse 93:
Kramena sudrdhaam bhaktim labhvaa mantram Harerapi Deham tyaktvaa ca golokam punareva prayaati sah
Verse 94:
Taatra Krsnasya saaruupyam paarsado bhavet Punastatpatanam naasti jaraamrtyuharo mahaan
He who makes a Rasamandala on the full moon of Kartika, and makes forms of a hundred Gopas, a hundred Gopis, and worships Krsna along with Radha in a stone form and worshiping Him with a sixteen items, will live in Goloka for the life span of Brahma.
Returning to Bharata he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord and His mantras. Quitting his body and returning to Goloka he attains the form of Hari and becomes one of His attendants free from birth and death. He never falls again.
Chapter 27,Verse 95:
Shuklaam vaapyathavaa Krsnaam karotyekaadasiim ca yah Vaikunthe modate so'pi yaavadvai brahmano vayah
Whoever observes Ekadashi in either phase of the moon enjoys in Vaikuntha for the life span of Brahma.
Verse 96:
Bhaaratam punaraagatya Haribhaktim labhed dhruvam Punaryaati ca vaikuntham na tasya patanam bhavet
Coming back to Bharata he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord. He will again go to Vaikuntha and not fall (He reverts to Vaikuntha and never falls again-na tasya patanam bhavet).
Chapter 26 Verse 109:
Yo vakti vaa dadaatyeva Harernaamaani Bhaarate Yugam naamapramaanam ca Vishnuloke mahiiyate
He who recites the name of Vishnu or gives it to someone in Bharat, enjoys in Vaikuntha (Vishnuloka) for as many Yugas as names he has recited.
Chapter 26 Verse 110:
Tatah punarihaagatya Vishnubhaktim labhed dhruvam Yadi Naaraayanaksetre phalam kotigunam labhet
Returning to Earth he attains bhakti to Vishnu for certain. If he does this in a place of Narayana he obtains ten million times the merit (result).
The Sanskrit words that are used in these verses of Brahma Vaivarta Purana makes it very clear what is being said about the Jivas actually falling from Vaikuntha, Goloka and then taking birth on Earth. Finally they return to Goloka or Vaikunthath leaving Earth behind.
Select portions of the verses are given so the reader can get a bird's eye view of the repetitive phrases that drive the points home so clearly:
Krsna Janma Khanda, ch.111, verse 5: patanam - falls, falldown
Krsna Janma Khanda, ch.126, verse 59: Ati ucchrtah nipatanam - from a very high place falling down
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, verse 60: Punah svayonim - again human birth
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, verse 75: Punah svayonim - again human birth
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, verse 82: Punah svayonim - again human birth
(Note: These verses are relating to taking birth again after going to Vaikuntha.)
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, Verse 92: Punah agatya-again coming back
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, Verse 93: Goloka punar eva prayat sah - He surely goes to Goloka again.
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, Verse 94: Punas tat patanam nasti - He never falls again
(Note: this is after having come back to Earth from Goloka and then going back there.)
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, verse 96: Bharatam punaragatya - again coming back to Bharata.
Punaryati ca Vaikuntham na tasya patanam bhavet - He will again go to Vaikuntha and not fall.
Prakriti Khanda, ch.27, verse 110: Tatah punarihagatya - thereafter again having come here (from Vaikuntha)
Note: English translations by Bhanu Swami
Word for Word by Dr. Santosh Kumari (Sanskrit Gold Medalist)
and Dr. Sudershan Kaushik (Sanskrit Gold Medalist)
Return to Part One
