(Continued)

The Way of Yoga

 

We generally regard yoga merely as a form of physical exercise. But in the following lecture, delivered in February 1969 in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada reveals the inner meaning and nature of yoga as taught and practiced in India for centuries. He explains how expert yogis can--by practicing austerities--travel to any planet in the universe. But, he concludes, at the time of death the most successful yogis transfer themselves to "the spiritual world and enter into the Krsnaloka, or the Krsna planet, and enjoy with Krsna."

 

sarva-dvarani samyamya

mano hrdi nirudhya ca

murdhny adhayatmanah pranam

asthito yoga-dharanam

 

"The yogic situation is that of detachment from all sensual engagements. Closing all the doors of the senses and fixing the mind on the heart and the life air at the top of the head, one establishes himself in yoga." (Bhagavad-gita 8.12)

There are different kinds of transcendentalists, or yogis: the jnana-yogi, the dhyana-yogi, and the bhakti-yogi. All of them are eligible to be transferred to the spiritual world, because the yoga system is meant for reestablishing our link with the Supreme Lord.

Actually, we are eternally connected with the Supreme Lord, but somehow or other we are now entangled in material contamination. So the process is that we have to go back again. That linking process is called yoga.

The actual meaning of the word yoga is "plus." Now, at the present moment, we are minus God, minus the Supreme. But when we make ourselves plus, or connected with God, then our human form of life is perfect.

By the time death comes, we must reach that stage of perfection. As long as we are alive, we have to practice how to approach that point of perfection. And at the time of death, when we give up this material body, that perfection must be realized. Prayana-kale manasacalena. Prayana-kale means "at the time of death." For instance, a student may prepare two years, three years, or four years in his college education, and the final test is his examination. If he passes the examination, then he gets his degree. Similarly, if we prepare for the examination of death and we pass the examination, then we are transferred to the spiritual world. All that we have learned in this life is examined at the time of death.

So here in the Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krsna is describing what we should do at the point of death, when we are giving up this present body.

For the dhyana-yogis the prescription is: sarva-dvarani samyamya mano hrdi nirudhya ca. In the technical language of the yoga system, this process is called pratyahara. Pratyahara means "just the opposite." For example, suppose my eyes are engaged in seeing worldly beauty. So I would have to refrain from enjoying that external beauty and instead engage in meditation to see the beauty within. That is called pratyahara. Similarly, I would have to hear omkara--the sound representation of the Lord--from within. And in the same way, all the senses must be withdrawn from their external activities and engaged in meditation on God. That is the perfection of dhyana-yoga: to concentrate the mind on Visnu, or God. The mind is very agitating. So it has to be fixed on the heart: mano hrdi nirudhya. Then we have to transfer the life air to the top of the head: murdhny adhayatmanah pranam asthito yoga-dharanam. That is the perfection of yoga.

A perfect dhyana-yogi can choose his own destination after death. There are innumerable material planets, and beyond the material planets is the spiritual world. Yogis have information about all the different planets. Where did they get this information? From the Vedic scriptures. For instance, before I came to your country, I got the description of your country from books. Similarly, we can get the descriptions of higher planets and the spiritual world from the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

The yogi knows everything, and he can transfer himself to any planet he likes. He does not require the help of any spaceship. The scientists have been trying to reach other planets for so many years with their spaceships, and they will go on trying for one hundred or one thousand years. But they'll never be successful. Rest assured. This is not the process to reach another planet. Maybe, by scientific progress, one man or two men can succeed, but that is not the general process. The general process is that if you want to transfer yourself to any better planet, then you have to practice this dhyana-yoga system--or the jnana system. But not the bhakti system.

The bhakti system is not meant for attaining any material planet. Those who render devotional service to Krsna, the Supreme Lord, are not interested in any planet of this material world. Why? Because they know that regardless of what planet you elevate yourself to, the four principles of material existence will still be there. What are those principles? Birth, death, disease, and old age. You will find these on any planet you go to. On some higher planets your duration of life may be very, very much longer than on this earth, but still, death is there. Material life means birth, death, disease, and old age. And spiritual life means relief from these botherations. No more birth, no more death, no more ignorance, and no more misery. So those who are intelligent do not try to elevate themselves to any planet of this material world.

Now the scientists are trying to reach the moon planet, but it is very difficult for them to gain entrance, because they do not have a suitable body. But if we enter into the higher planets by this yoga system, then we will get a body suitable for those planets. For every planet there is a suitable body. Otherwise, you cannot enter. For example, although we cannot live in the water with this body, we can live in the water with oxygen tanks--for fifteen or sixteen hours. But the fish, the aquatic animals, have a suitable body--they are living their whole life underwater. And of course, if you take the fish out of the water and put them on the land, they'll die instantly. So you see, even on this planet you have to have a suitable kind of body to live in a particular place. Similarly, if you want to enter into another planet, you have to prepare yourself by getting a particular type of body.

In the higher planets, our year is equal to one day and night, and you live for ten thousand of such years. That is the description in the Vedic literature. So you get a very long duration of life undoubtedly. But then there is death. After ten thousand years, or twenty thousand years, or millions of years--it doesn't matter. It is all counted, and death is there. But you, the spirit soul, are not subject to death--that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire: you are an eternal spirit soul.

Why should you subject yourself to this birth and death? To ask this question is a sign of real intelligence. Those persons who are in Krsna consciousness are very intelligent. They aren't interested in promotion to any planet where there is death, regardless of how long you live. They want a spiritual body, just like God's. God's body is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha: isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. Sat means "eternal," cit means "full of knowledge," and ananda means "full of pleasure." If we leave this body and transfer ourselves to the spiritual world--to live with Krsna Himself--then we get a body similar to His: sac-cid-ananda--eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. Those who are trying to be Krsna conscious have a different aim of life than those who are trying to promote themselves to any of the better planets in this material world.

You are a very minute, spiritual particle within this body, and you are being sustained in the prana-vayu, or life airs. The dhyana-yoga system--the sat-cakra system--aims to get the soul from its position in the heart to the topmost part of the head. And the perfection is when you can place yourself at the top of the head and, by rupturing this topmost part of the head, transfer yourself into the higher planets, as you like. A dhyana-yogi can transfer into any planet--wherever he likes.

So if you like--just like you are inquisitive about the moon planet--become a yogi and go there. A yogi thinks, "Oh, let me see what the moon planet is like. Then I shall transfer myself to higher planets." It is the same with ordinary travelers. They come to New York, then go to California, then go to Canada. Similarly, you can transfer yourself to so many planets by this yoga system. But anywhere you go, the same systems--visa system and customs system--are there. So a Krsna conscious person is not interested in these temporary planets. Life there may be of a long duration, but he is not interested.

For the yogi there is a process of giving up this body:

 

om ity ekaksaram brahma

vyaharan mam anusmaran

yah prayati tyajan deham

sa yati paramam gatim

 

At the time of death--"Om. .. " He can pronounce om, the omkara. Omkara is the concise form of transcendental sound vibration. Om ity ekaksaram brahma vyaharan: If he can vibrate this sound, omkara, and at the same time remember Krsna, or Visnu (mam anusmaran), he can enter into the spiritual kingdom.

The whole yoga system is meant for concentrating the mind on Visnu. But the impersonalists imagine that this omkara is the form of Visnu, or the Lord. Those who are personalists do not imagine. They see the actual form of the Supreme Lord. Anyway, whether you concentrate your mind by imagining or you see factually, you have to fix your mind on the Visnu form. Here mam means "unto the Supreme Lord, Visnu." Yah prayati tyajan deham: Anyone who quits his body remembering Visnu--sa yati paramam gatim--he enters into the spiritual kingdom.

Those who are actual yogis do not desire to enter any other planet in the material world, because they know that life there is temporary. That is intelligence. Those who are satisfied with temporary happiness, temporary life, and temporary facilities are not intelligent, according to the Bhagavad-gita: antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam. I am permanent. I am eternal. Who wants nonpermanent existence? Nobody wants it.

Suppose you are living in an apartment and the landlord asks you to vacate. You are sorry. But you'll not be sorry if you go to a better apartment. So this is our nature: Wherever we live, because we are permanent, we want a permanent residence. That is our inclination. We don't wish to die. Why? Because we are permanent. We don't want to be diseased. These are all artificial, external things--disease, death, birth, miseries. They are external things.

Just like sometimes you are attacked with fever. You are not meant for suffering from fever, but sometimes it comes upon you. So you have to take precautions to get out of it. Similarly, these four kinds of external afflictions--birth, death, disease, and old age--are due to this material body. If we can get out of this material body, we can get out of these afflictions.

So for the yogi who is an impersonalist, the recommended process is vibrating this transcendental sound, om, while leaving this body. Anyone who is able to quit this material body while uttering the transcendental sound om, with full consciousness of the Supreme Lord, is sure to be transferred to the spiritual world.

But those who are not personalists cannot enter into the spiritual planets. They remain outside. Just like the sunshine and the sun planet. The sunshine is not different from the sun disk. But still, the sunshine is not the sun disk. Similarly, those impersonalists who are transferred to the spiritual world remain in the effulgence of the Supreme Lord, which is called the brahmajyoti. Those who are not personalists are placed into the brahmajyoti as one of the minute particles.

We are minute particles, spiritual sparks, and the brahmajyoti is full of such spiritual sparks. So you become one of the spiritual sparks. That is, you merge into the spiritual existence. You keep your individuality, but because you don't want any personal form, you are held there in the impersonal brahmajyoti. Just as the sunshine is small molecules, shining molecules--those who are scientists know--similarly, we are tiny particles, smaller than an atom. Our magnitude is one ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair. So that small particle remains in the brahmajyoti.

The difficulty is that, as a living entity, I want enjoyment. Because I am not only simply existing. I have got bliss. I am composed of three spiritual qualities: sac-cid-ananda. I am eternal, and I am full of knowledge, and I am full of bliss. Those who enter into the impersonal effulgence of the Supreme Lord can remain eternally with full knowledge that they are now merged with Brahman, or the brahmajyoti. But they cannot have eternal bliss, because that part is wanting.

If you are confined in a room alone, you may read a book or think some thought, but still you cannot remain alone all the time, for all the years of your life. That is not possible. You'll find some association, some recreation. That is our nature. Similarly, if we merge into the impersonal effulgence of the Supreme Lord, then there is a chance of falling down again to this material world. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.2.32):

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

It's just like the astronauts who go higher and still higher--twenty-five thousand or thirty thousand or a hundred thousand miles up. But they have to come to rest on some planet. So coming to rest is required. In the impersonal form the resting place is uncertain. Therefore the Bhagavatam says, aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah. Even after so much endeavor, if the impersonalist gets into the spiritual world and remains in that impersonal form, the risk is patanty adhah, that he will come down into material existence again. Why? Anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah: Because he has neglected to serve the Supreme Lord with love and devotion.

So, as long as we are here we have to practice loving Krsna, the Supreme Lord. Then we can enter the spiritual planets. This is the training. If you are not trained in that way, then by impersonal endeavor you can enter into the spiritual kingdom, but there is the risk of falling down again--because that loneliness will create some disturbance, and you'll try to have association. And because you have no association with the Supreme Lord, you'll have to come back and associate with this material world.

So better that we know the nature of our constitutional position. Our constitutional position is that we want eternity, we want complete knowledge, and we want pleasure also. If we are kept alone, we cannot have pleasure. We'll feel uncomfortable, and for want of pleasure we'll accept any kind of material pleasure. That is the risk. But in Krsna consciousness, we'll have full pleasure. The highest pleasure of this material world is sex life, and that is also perverted--so diseased. So even in the spiritual world there is sex pleasure in Krsna. But we should not think that this is something like sex life in the material world. No. But, janmady asya yatah: unless that sex life is there, it cannot be reflected here. It is simply a perverted reflection. The actual life is there, in Krsna. Krsna is full of pleasure.

So the best thing is to train ourselves in Krsna consciousness. Then at the time of death it will be possible to transfer ourselves to the spiritual world and enter into Krsnaloka, Krsna's own planet, and enjoy with Him.

 

cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-

laksavrtesu surabhir abhipalayantam

laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

These are the descriptions of Krsnaloka. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu: The houses are made of touchstone. Perhaps you know touchstone. If a small particle of it is touched to an iron beam, the iron will at once become gold. Of course, none of you have seen this touchstone, but there is such a thing. So all the buildings there are touchstone. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu. Kalpa-vrksa: The trees are desire trees. Whatever you like, you can get. Here, from mango trees you get only mangoes, and from apple trees you get apples. But there, from any tree, anything you like you can have. These are some of the descriptions of Krsnaloka.

So the best thing is not to try elevating ourselves to another material planet, because on any material planet you enter, you find the same principles of miserable life. We are accustomed to them. We have been acclimated to birth and death. We don't care. The modern scientists are very proud of their advancement, but they have no solution to any of these unpleasant things. They cannot make anything that will check death or disease or old age. That is not possible. You can manufacture something that will accelerate death, but you cannot manufacture anything that will stop death. That is not in your power.

So, those who are very intelligent are concerned about finding a permanent solution to these four problems--janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi: birth, death, old age, and disease. They are concerned about attaining their spiritual life, full of bliss and full of knowledge. And that is possible when you enter into the spiritual planets. As Krsna states in Bhagavad-gita (8.14):

 

ananya-cetah satatam

yo mam smarati nityasah

tasyaham sulabhah partha

nitya-yuktasya yoginah

 

Nitya-yuktah means "continuously in trance." This is the highest yogi: one who is continuously thinking of Krsna, who is always engaged in Krsna consciousness. Such a perfect yogi does not divert his attention to this sort of process or that sort of yoga system or the jnana or dhyana systems. Simply one system: Krsna consciousness. Ananya-cetah: without any deviation. He's not disturbed by anything. He simply thinks of Krsna. Ananya-cetah satatam. Satatam means "everywhere and at all times."

For example, my residence is at Vrndavana. That is the place of Krsna, where Krsna advented Himself. So now I am in America, in your country. But that does not mean I'm out of Vrndavana, because if I think of Krsna always, it is as good as being in Vrndavana. I am in New York, in this apartment, but my consciousness is there in Vrndavana. Krsna consciousness means you already live with Krsna in His spiritual planet. You simply have to wait to give up this body.

So this is the process of Krsna consciousness: ananya-cetah satatam yo mam smarati nityasah. Smarati means "remembering"; nityasah, "continuously." Krsna declares that He becomes easily available to someone who is always remembering Him. The highest, most valuable thing becomes very inexpensive for one who takes up this process of Krsna consciousness. Tasyaham sulabhah partha nitya-yuktasya yoginah: "Because he's continuously engaged in such a process of yoga, bhakti-yoga--oh, I am very cheap. I am easily available."

Why should you try for any hard process? Simply chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And you can chant twenty-four hours a day. There are no rules or regulations. Either in the street or in the subway, at your home or in your office--there is no tax, no expense. Why don't you do it?

Thank you very much.

Making Friends with the Mind

 

Is the mind the ultimate reservoir of human resources? Or is there a greater source of knowledge beyond our minds? In the following lecture, recorded in February 1969 in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada explains why the mind must be brought under the control of spiritual energy. His theme is based on the following famous verse from India's most widely read and respected scripture, the Bhagavad-gita:

 

bandhur atmatmanas tasya

yenatmaivatmana jitah

anatmanas tu satrutve

vartetatmaiva satru-vat

 

"For one who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends, but for one who has failed to do so, the mind will be the greatest enemy." (Bhagavad-gita 6.6)

The whole purpose of the yoga system is to make the mind our friend. The mind in material contact is our enemy, just like the mind of a person in a drunken condition. In Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 20.117) it is said, krsna bhuli' se jiva anadi-bahirmukha ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha: "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the Lord's external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy [maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence." I am a spiritual soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but as soon as my mind is contaminated I rebel, because I have a little independence. "Why shall I serve Krsna, or God? I am God." When this idea is dictated from the mind, my whole situation turns. I come under a false impression, an illusion, and my whole life is spoiled. So, we are trying to conquer so many things--empires and so on--but if we fail to conquer our minds, then even if we conquer an empire we are failures. Our very mind will be our greatest enemy.

The purpose of practicing eightfold yoga is to control the mind in order to make it a friend in discharging the human mission. Unless the mind is controlled, the practice of yoga is simply a waste of time; it is simply for show. One who cannot control his mind lives always with the greatest enemy, and thus his life and its mission are spoiled. The constitutional position of the living entity is to carry out the order of the superior. As long as one's mind remains an unconquered enemy, one has to serve the dictations of lust, anger, avarice, illusion, and so on. But when the mind is conquered, one voluntarily agrees to abide by the dictation of the Personality of Godhead, who is situated within the heart of everyone as the Supersoul (Paramatma). Real yoga practice entails meeting the Paramatma within the heart and then following His dictation. For one who takes to Krsna consciousness directly, perfect surrender to the dictation of the Lord follows automatically.

 

jitatmanah prasantasya

paramatma samahitah

sitosna-sukha-duhkhesu

tatha manapamanayoh

 

"For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquillity. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same." (Bhagavad-gita 6.7)

Actually, every living entity is intended to abide by the dictation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is seated in everyone's heart as Paramatma. When the mind is misled by the external energy, one becomes entangled in material activities. Therefore, as soon as one's mind is controlled through one of the yoga systems, one is to be considered as having already reached the destination. One has to abide by superior dictation. When one's mind is fixed on the superior nature, one has no alternative but to follow the dictation of the Supreme from within. The mind must admit some superior dictation and follow it. The effect of controlling the mind is that one automatically follows the dictation of the Paramatma, or Supersoul. Because this transcendental position is at once achieved by one who is in Krsna consciousness, the devotee of the Lord is unaffected by the dualities of material existence--distress and happiness, cold and heat, and so on. This state is practical samadhi, or absorption in the Supreme.

 

jnana-vijnana-trptatma

kuta-stho vijitendriyah

yukta ity ucyate yogi

sama-lostrasma-kancanah

 

"A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a yogi, or mystic, when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence and is self-controlled. He sees everything--whether it be pebbles, stones, or gold--as the same." (Bhagavad-gita 6.8)

Book knowledge without realization of the Supreme Truth is useless. In the Padma Purana this is stated as follows:

 

atah sri-krsna-namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau

svayam eva sphuraty adah

 

"No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form, qualities, and pastimes of Sri Krsna through his materially contaminated senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality, and pastimes of the Lord revealed to him."

This is very important. Now, we accept Krsna as the Supreme Lord. And why do we accept that Krsna is the Supreme Lord? Because it is stated in the Vedic literature. The Brahma-samhita, for example, says, isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah: "The supreme controller is Krsna, who has an eternal, blissful, spiritual body." Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance simply imagine the form of God. And when they are confused, they say, "Oh, there is no personal God. The Absolute is impersonal or void." This is frustration.

Actually, God has a form. Why not? The Vedanta-sutra says, janmady asya yatah: "The Supreme Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates." Now, we have forms. And not only we but all the different kinds of living entities have forms. Wherefrom have they come? Wherefrom have these forms originated? These are very commonsense questions. If God is not a person, then how have His sons become persons? If my father is not a person, how have I become a person? If my father has no form, wherefrom did I get my form? Nonetheless, when people are frustrated, when they see that their bodily forms are troublesome, they develop an opposite conception of form, and they imagine that God must be formless. But the Brahma-samhita says no. God has a form, but His form is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss (isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah). Sat means "eternity," cit means "knowledge," and ananda means "pleasure." So God has a form, but His form is full of pleasure, full of knowledge, and eternal.

Now, let's compare our body to God's. Our body is neither eternal nor full of pleasure nor full of knowledge. So our form is clearly different from God's. But as soon as we think of form, we think the form must be like ours. Therefore we think that since God must be the opposite of us, He must have no form. This is speculation, however, not knowledge. As it is said in the Padma Purana, atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih: "One cannot understand the form, name, quality, or paraphernalia of God with one's material senses." Our senses are imperfect, so how can we see the Supreme Person? It is not possible.

Then how is it possible to see Him? Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau: If we train our senses, if we purify our senses, those purified senses will help us see God. It is just as if we had cataracts on our eyes. Because our eyes are suffering from cataracts, we cannot see. But this does not mean that there is nothing to be seen--only that we cannot see. Similarly, now we cannot conceive of the form of God, but if our cataracts are removed, we can see Him. The Brahma-samhita says, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti: "The devotees whose eyes are anointed with the love-of-God ointment see God, Krsna, within their hearts twenty-four hours a day." So, we require to purify our senses. Then we'll be able to understand what the form of God is, what the name of God is, what the qualities of God are, what the abode of God is, and what the paraphernalia of God are, and we'll be able to see God in everything.

The Vedic literature is full of references to God's form. For example, it is said that God has no hands or legs but that He can accept anything you offer: apani-pado javano grhita. Also, it is said that God has no eyes or ears but that He can see everything and hear everything. So, these are apparent contradictions, because whenever we think of someone seeing, we think he must have eyes like ours. This is our material conception. Factually, however, God does have eyes, but His eyes are different from ours. He can see even in the darkness, but we cannot. God can hear, also. God is in His kingdom, which is millions and millions of miles away, but if we are whispering something--conspiracy--He can hear it, because He is sitting within us.

So, we cannot avoid God's seeing or God's hearing or God's touching. In the Bhagavad-gita (9.26) Lord Krsna says,

 

patram puspam phalam toyam

yo me bhaktya prayacchati

tad aham bhakty-upahrtam

asnami prayatatmanah

 

"If somebody offers Me flowers, fruits, vegetables, or milk with devotional love, I accept and eat it." Now, how is He eating? We cannot see Him eat, but He is eating. We experience this daily: When we offer Krsna food according to the ritualistic process, we see that the taste of the food changes immediately. This is practical. So God eats, but because He is full in Himself, He does not eat like us. If someone offers me a plate of food, I may finish it, but God is not hungry, so when He eats He leaves the things as they are. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate: God is so full that He can eat all the food that we offer and still it remains as it is. He can eat with His eyes. This is stated in the Brahma-samhita: angani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti. "Every limb of the body of God has all the potencies of the other limbs." For example, we can see with our eyes, but we cannot eat with our eyes. But if God simply sees the food we have offered, that is His eating.

Of course, these things cannot be understood by us at the present moment. Therefore, the Padma Purana says that only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, qualities, and pastimes of the Lord revealed to him. We cannot understand God by our own endeavor, but God can reveal Himself to us. Trying to see God by our own efforts is just like trying to see the sun when it is dark outside. If we say, "Oh, I have a very strong flashlight, and I shall search out the sun," we will not be able to see it. But in the morning, when the sun rises out of its own will, we can see it. Similarly, we cannot see God by our own endeavor, because our senses are all imperfect. We have to purify our senses and wait for the time when God will be pleased to reveal Himself before us. This is the process of Krsna consciousness. We cannot challenge, "Oh, my dear God, my dear Krsna, You must come before me. I shall see You." No, God is not our order-supplier, our servant. When He is pleased with us, we'll see Him.

So, our yoga process tries to please God so that He will reveal Himself to us. That is the real yoga process. Without this process, people are accepting so many nonsensical "Gods." Because people cannot see God, anybody who says "I am God" is accepted. No one knows who God is. Somebody may say, "I am searching after truth," but he must know what truth is. Otherwise, how will he search out truth? Suppose I want to purchase gold. I must know what gold is, or at least have some experience of it. Otherwise, people will cheat me. So, people are being cheated--accepting so many rascals as God--because they do not know what God is. Anyone can come and say, "I am God," and some rascal will accept him as God. The man who says "I am God" is a rascal, and the man who accepts him as God is also a rascal. God cannot be known like this. One has to qualify himself to see God, to understand God. That is Krsna consciousness. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah: If we engage ourselves in the service of the Lord, then we'll become qualified to see God. Otherwise, it is not possible.

Now, this Bhagavad-gita is the science of Krsna consciousness. No one can become Krsna conscious simply by mundane scholarship. Simply because one has some titles--M.A., B.A., Ph.D.--that does not mean he'll understand the Bhagavad-gita. This is a transcendental science, and one requires different senses to understand it. So one has to purify his senses by rendering service to the Lord. Otherwise, even if one is a great scholar--a doctor or a Ph.D.--he will make mistakes in trying to find out what Krsna is. He will not understand--it is not possible. This is why Krsna appears in the material world as He is. Although He is unborn (ajo 'pi sann avyayatma), He comes to make us know who God is. But since He is not personally present now, to know Him one must be fortunate enough to associate with a person who is in pure Krsna consciousness. A Krsna conscious person has realized knowledge, by the grace of Krsna, because He is satisfied with pure devotional service. So we have to acquire the grace of Krsna. Then we can understand Krsna, then we can see Krsna, then we can talk with Krsna--then we can do everything.

Krsna is a person. He is the supreme person. That is the Vedic injunction: nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam--"We are all eternal persons, and God is the supreme eternal person." Now we are meeting birth and death because we are encaged within this body. But actually, being eternal spirit souls, we have no birth and death at all. According to our work, according to our desire, we are transmigrating from one kind of body to another, another, and another. Yet actually, we have no birth and death. As explained in the Bhagavad-gita (2.20), na jayate mriyate va: "The living entity never takes birth, nor does he ever die." Similarly, God is also eternal. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam: "God is the supreme living entity among all living entities, and He is the supreme eternal person among eternal persons." So, by practicing Krsna consciousness, by purifying our senses, we can reestablish our eternal relationship with the supreme eternal person, the complete eternal person. Then we will see God.

Through realized knowledge one becomes perfect. Through transcendental knowledge one can remain steady in his convictions, but with mere academic knowledge one can be easily deluded and confused by apparent contradictions. It is the realized soul who is actually self-controlled, because he is surrendered to Krsna. And he is transcendental, because he has nothing to do with mundane scholarship. For him, mundane scholarship and mental speculation (which may be as good as gold to others) are of no greater value than pebbles or stones.

Even if one is illiterate, even if he does not know the ABC's, he can realize God--provided he engages himself in submissive transcendental loving service to God. On the other hand, although one is a very learned scholar, he may not be able to realize God. God is not subject to any material condition, because He is the supreme spirit. Similarly, the process of realizing God is also not subject to any material condition. It is not true that because one is a poor man he cannot realize God, or that because one is a very rich man he shall realize God. No. God is beyond our material conditions (apratihata). In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.6) it is said, sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje: "That religion is first class which helps one advance his devotional service and love of God."

The Bhagavatam does not mention that the Hindu religion is first class or the Christian religion is first class or the Mohammedan religion is first class or some other religion is first class. The Bhagavatam says that that religion is first class which helps one advance his devotional service and love of God. That's all. This is the definition of a first-class religion. We do not analyze that one religion is first class or that another religion is last class. Of course, there are three qualities in the material world (goodness, passion, and ignorance), and religious conceptions are created according to these qualities. But the purpose of religion is to understand God and to learn how to love God. Any religious system, if it teaches one how to love God, is first class. Otherwise, it is useless. One may prosecute his religious principles very rigidly and very nicely, but if his love of God is nil, if his love of matter is simply enhanced, then his religion is no religion.

In the same verse, the Bhagavatam says that real religion must be ahaituki and apratihata: without selfish motivation and without any impediment. If we can practice such a system of religious principles, then we'll find that we are happy in all respects. Otherwise there is no possibility of happiness. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje. One of God's names is Adhoksaja. Adhoksaja means "one who conquers all materialistic attempts to be seen." Aksaja means "direct perception by experimental knowledge," and adhah means "unreachable." We cannot understand God by experimental knowledge. No. We have to learn of Him in a different way--by submissive aural reception of transcendental sound and by the rendering of transcendental loving service. Then we can understand God.

So, a religious principle is perfect if it teaches us how to develop our love for the Godhead. But our love must be without selfish motive. If I say, "I love God because He supplies me very nice things for my sense gratification," that is not love. Real love is without any selfish motive (ahaituki). We must simply think, "God is great; God is my father. It is my duty to love Him." That's all. No exchange--"Oh, God gives me my daily bread; therefore I love God." No. God gives daily bread even to the animals--the cats and dogs. God is the father of everyone, and He supplies food to everyone. So, appreciating God because He gives me bread--that is not love. Love without motive. I must think, "Even if God does not supply me daily bread, I'll love Him." This is real love. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam adarsanan marma-hatam karotu va: "O Lord, You may embrace me, or You may trample me down with Your feet. Or You may never come before me, so that I become brokenhearted without seeing You. Still, I love You." This is pure love of God. When we come to this stage of loving God, then we'll find ourselves full of pleasure. Just as God is full of pleasure, we'll also be full of pleasure. This is perfection.

 

The Ultimate Yoga

 

In this 1969 discourse, Srila Prabhupada focuses on the perfected stage of yoga practice. According to ancient Vedic teachings, the yoga system--beginning with hatha-yoga, pranayama (physical exercises and breath control) and karma-yoga--culminates in bhakti-yoga, the yoga of devotion to the Personality of Godhead. "If one is fortunate enough to come to the point of bhakti-yoga, it is to be understood that one has surpassed all other yogas," says Srila Prabhupada. "And the test of one's mastery of bhakti-yoga is based on how much one is developing one's love for God."

 

yoginam api sarvesam

mad-gatenantaratmana

sraddhavan bhajate yo mam

sa me yuktatamo matah

 

"And of all yogis, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself, and renders transcendental loving service to Me--he is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is My opinion." (Bhagavad-gita 6.47)

Here it is clearly stated that out of all the different kinds of yogis--the astanga-yogi, the hatha-yogi, the jnana-yogi, the karma-yogi, and the bhakti-yogi--the bhakti-yogi is on the highest plat-form of yoga. Krsna directly says, "Of all yogis, the one with great faith who always abides in Me... is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." Since Krsna is speaking, the words in Me mean "in Krsna." In other words, if one wants to become a perfect yogi on the highest platform, one should keep oneself in Krsna consciousness.

In this regard, the word bhajate in this verse is significant. Bhajate has its root in the verb bhaj, which is used to indicate devotional service. The English word worship cannot be used in the same sense as bhaja. To worship means "to adore" or "to show respect and honor to a worthy one." But service with love and faith is especially meant for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can avoid worshiping a respectable man or a demigod and be called merely discourteous, but one cannot avoid serving the Supreme Lord without being thoroughly condemned.

So, worship is very different from devotional service. Worship involves some selfish motive. We may worship some very big businessman because we know that if we please him, he may give us some business and we'll derive some profit. The worship of the demigods is like that. People often worship one of the demigods for some particular purpose, but this is condemned in Bhagavad-gita (7.20): kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah--"Those who have lost their sense and are bewildered by lust worship demigods with a selfish motive."

Thus when we speak of worship, there is a selfish motive, but when we speak of devotional service, there is no motive except the desire to please the beloved. Devotional service is based on love. For example, when a mother renders service to her child, there is no personal motive: she serves only out of love. Everyone else may neglect the child, but the mother cannot, because she loves him. Similarly, when there is a question of service to God, there should be no question of a personal motive. That is perfect Krsna consciousness, and that is recommended in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.6) in the description of the first-class system of religious principles: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje--"The first-class system of religious principles is that which enables one to develop one's God consciousness, or love of God." If one can develop one's love for God, one may follow any religious principle--it doesn't matter. But the test is how much one is developing one's love for God.

But if one has some personal motive and thinks, "By practicing this system of religion, my material necessities will be fulfilled," that is not first-class religion. That is third-class religion. First-class religion is that by which one can develop one's love of God, and that love must be without any personal motive and without any impediment (ahaituky apratihata). That is first-class religion, as recommended here by Krsna in this final verse of the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

Krsna consciousness is the perfection of yoga, but even if one looks at it from a religious viewpoint it is first class--because it is performed with no personal motive. My disciples are not serving Krsna so that He will supply them with this or that. There may be this or that, but that doesn't matter. Of course, there is no scarcity; devotees get everything they need. We shouldn't think that by becoming Krsna conscious one becomes poor. No. If Krsna is there, everything is there, because Krsna is everything. But we shouldn't make any business with Krsna: "Krsna, give me this, give me that." Krsna knows what we require better than we do, just as a father knows the necessities of his child. Why should we ask? Since God is all-powerful, He knows our wants and He knows our necessities. This is confirmed in the Vedas: eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman--"God is supplying all the necessities of the innumerable living entities."

We should simply try to love God, without demanding anything. Our needs will be supplied. Even the cats and dogs are getting their necessities. They don't go to church and ask God for anything, but they are getting their necessities. So why should a devotee not get his necessities? If the cats and dogs can get their necessities of life without demanding anything from God, why should we demand from God, "Give me this, give me that"? No. We should simply try to love Him and serve Him. That will fulfill everything, and that is the highest platform of yoga.

Service to God is natural; since I am part and parcel of God, my natural duty is to serve Him. The example of the finger and the body is appropriate. The finger is part and parcel of the body. And what is the duty of the finger? To serve the whole body, that's all. If you are feeling some itch, immediately your finger is working. If you want to see, your eyes immediately work. If you want to go somewhere, your legs immediately take you there. So, the bodily parts and limbs are helping the whole body.

Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God, and we are all meant simply for rendering service to Him. When the limbs of the body serve the whole body, the energy automatically comes to the limbs. Similarly, when we serve Krsna, we get all our necessities automatically. Yatha taror mula-nisecanena. If one pours water on the root of a tree, the energy is immediately supplied to the leaves, the twigs, the branches, and so on. Similarly, simply by serving Krsna, or God, we serve all other parts of creation. There is no question of serving each living entity separately.

Another point is that by serving God, we will automatically have sympathy for all living beings--not only for human beings, but even for animals. Therefore God consciousness, Krsna consciousness, is the perfection of religion. Without Krsna consciousness our sympathy for other living entities is very limited, but with Krsna consciousness our sympathy for other living entities is full.

Every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down. Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.3) confirms this as follows:

 

ya esam purusam saksad

atma-prabhavam isvaram

na bhajanty avajananti

sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah

 

"Anyone who neglects his duty and does not render service unto the primeval Lord, who is the source of all living entities, will certainly fall down from his constitutional position."

How do we fall down from our constitutional position? Once again, the example of the finger and the body is appropriate. If one's finger becomes diseased and cannot render service to the whole body, it simply gives one pain. Similarly, any person who is not rendering service to the Supreme Lord is simply disturbing Him, giving Him pain and trouble. Therefore, such a person has to suffer, just like a man who is not abiding by the laws of the state. Such a criminal simply gives pain to the government, and he's liable to be punished. He may think, "I'm a very good man," but because he's violating the laws of the state, he's simply torturing the government. This is easy to understand.

So, any living entity who is not serving Krsna is causing Him a kind of pain. And that is sinful--to make Krsna feel pain. Just as the government collects all the painful citizens and keeps them in the prison house--"You criminals must live here so you can't disturb people in the open state"--so God puts all the criminals who have violated His laws, who have simply given Him pain, into this material world. Sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah: They fall down from their constitutional position in the spiritual world. Again we may cite the example of the finger. If your finger is extremely painful, the doctor may advise, "Mr. So-and-so, your finger has to be amputated. Otherwise, it will pollute your whole body." Sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah: The finger then falls down from its constitutional position as part of the body.

Having rebelled against the principles of God consciousness, we have all fallen down to this material world. If we want to revive our original position, we must again establish ourselves in the service attitude. That is the perfect cure. Otherwise, we shall suffer pain, and God will be suffering pain on account of us. We are just like bad sons of God. If a son is not good, he suffers, and the father suffers along with the son. Similarly, when we are suffering, God is also suffering. Therefore, the best thing is to revive our original Krsna consciousness and engage in the service of the Lord.

The word avajananti used in the verse cited from Srimad-Bhagavatam is also used by Krsna in Bhagavad-gita (9.11):

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

 

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." Only the fools and rascals deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna. The word mudha means "fool" or "rascal." Only a rascal does not care for Krsna. Not knowing that he will suffer for this attitude, he dares neglect Him. Without knowing the supreme position of the Lord, the rascals worship some cheap "God." God has become so cheap that many people say, "I am God, you are God." But what is the meaning of the word God? If everyone is God, then what is the meaning of God?

So, the word avajananti is very appropriate. Avajananti means "neglectful," and it perfectly describes the person who says, "What is God? I am God. Why should I serve God?" This is avajananti--neglecting God's real position. A criminal may have the same attitude toward the government: "Oh, what is the government? I can do whatever I like. I don't care for the government." This is avajananti. But even if we say, "I don't care for the government," the police department is there. It will give us pain; it will punish us. Similarly, even if we don't care for God, the material nature will punish us with birth, old age, disease, and death. To get out of this suffering, we must practice yoga.

The culmination of all kinds of yoga practice lies in bhakti-yoga. All other yogas are but means to come to the point of bhakti-yoga. Yoga actually means bhakti-yoga; all other yogas are progressions toward this destination. From the beginning of karma-yoga to the end of bhakti-yoga is a long way to self-realization. Karma-yoga, executed without fruitive desires, is the beginning of this path. (Fruitive activities, or karma, include sinful activities also. Karma-yoga, however, does not include sinful activities but only good, pious activities, or prescribed activities. This is karma-yoga.) Then, when karma-yoga increases in knowledge and renunciation, the stage is called jnana-yoga. When jnana-yoga increases in meditation on the Supersoul by various physical processes, and when the mind is on Him, one has reached the stage called astanga-yoga. And when one surpasses astanga-yoga and comes to the point of serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, one has reached bhakti-yoga, the culmination.

Factually, bhakti-yoga is the ultimate goal, but to analyze bhakti-yoga minutely one has to understand these other, minor yogas. The yogi who is progressive is therefore on the true path of eternal auspiciousness, whereas one who sticks to a particular point and does not make further progress is called by that particular name: karma-yogi, jnana-yogi, or astanga-yogi. But if one is fortunate enough to come to the point of bhakti-yoga, it is to be understood that one has surpassed all the other yogas. Therefore, to become Krsna conscious is the highest stage of yoga, just as, when we speak of the Himalayas, we refer to the world's highest mountains, of which the highest peak, Mount Everest, is considered the culmination.

If someone practicing jnana-yoga thinks that he is finished, that is wrong. He has to make further progress. For example, suppose you want to go to the highest floor of a building--say, the hundredth floor--by walking up a staircase. You will pass the thirtieth floor, the fiftieth floor, the eightieth floor, and so on. But suppose when you come to the fiftieth or eightieth floor you think, "I have reached my goal." Then you are unsuccessful. To reach your destination you have to go to the hundredth floor. Similarly, all the processes of yoga are connected, like a staircase, but we shouldn't be satisfied to stop on the fiftieth floor or the eightieth floor. We should go to the highest platform, the hundredth floor--pure Krsna consciousness.

Now, if somebody who wants to reach the hundredth floor is given a chance to use the elevator, within a minute he will be able to come to the top. Of course, he may still say, "Why should I take advantage of this elevator? I shall go step by step." He can do this, but there is a chance he will not reach the top floor. Similarly, if one takes help from the "elevator" of bhakti-yoga, within a short time he can reach the "hundredth floor"--the perfection of yoga, Krsna consciousness.

Krsna consciousness is the direct process. You may go step by step, following all the other yoga systems, or you may take directly to Krsna consciousness. Lord Caitanya has recommended that in this age, since people are very short-lived, disturbed, and full of anxiety, they should take up the direct process. And by His grace, by His causeless mercy, He has given us the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra, which lifts us immediately to the platform of bhakti-yoga. It is immediate; we don't have to wait. That is the special gift of Lord Caitanya. Therefore Srila Rupa Gosvami prayed, namo maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya te: "O Lord Caitanya, You are the most munificent incarnation because You are directly giving love of Krsna." Ordinarily, to attain love of Krsna one has to pass through so many steps and stages of yoga, but Lord Caitanya gave it directly. Therefore He is the most munificent incarnation. This is the position of Lord Caitanya.

The only way to know God in truth is through bhakti-yoga. In Bhagavad-gita (18.55) Krsna confirms this. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah: "Only by devotional service can one understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead as He is." The Vedas confirm that only through bhakti, or devotional service, can one attain the highest perfectional stage. If one practices other yoga systems, there must be a mixture of bhakti if one is to make any progress. But because people don't have sufficient time to execute all the practices of any other yoga system, the direct process of bhakti-yoga, unadulterated devotion, is recommended for this age. Therefore, it is by great fortune that one comes to Krsna consciousness, the path of bhakti-yoga, and becomes well situated according to the Vedic directions.

The ideal yogi concentrates his attention on Krsna, who is as beautifully colored as a cloud, whose lotuslike face is as effulgent as the sun, whose dress is brilliant with jewels, and whose body is flower-garlanded. Illuminating all sides is His gorgeous luster, which is called the brahmajyoti. He incarnates in different forms, such as Rama, Varaha, and Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He descends as a human being--as the son of mother Yasoda--and He is known as Krsna, Govinda, and Vasudeva. He is the perfect child, husband, friend, and master, and He is full with all opulences and transcendental qualities. One who remains fully conscious of these features of the Lord is the highest yogi. This stage of perfection in yoga can be attained only by bhakti-yoga, as confirmed in all Vedic literature.

 

Material Problems, Spiritual Solutions

 

Focus for Global Unity

 

December 1969: Speaking in Boston before the International Student Society, Srila Prabhupada provides a practical, simple, yet profound solution for world peace and harmony. Noting the increasing number of flags at the United Nations building in New York, he states that inter-nationalism is failing because "your international feeling and my inter-national feeling are overlapping and conflicting. We have to find the proper center for our loving feelings.... That center is Krsna."

 

Thank you very much for participating with us in this Krsna consciousness movement. I understand that this society is known as the International Student Society. There are many other international societies, such as the United Nations. So the idea of an international society is very nice, but we must try to understand what the central idea of an international society should be.

If you throw a stone into the middle of a pool of water, a circle will expand to the limit of the bank. Similarly, radio waves expand in a circle, and when you capture the waves with your radio you can hear the message. In the same way, our loving feeling can also expand.

At the beginning of our life, we simply want to eat. Whatever a small child grabs, he wants to eat. He has only personal interest. Then, when the child grows a little, he tries to participate with his brothers and sisters: "All right. You also take a little." This is an increase in the feeling of fellowship. Then, as he grows up, he begins to feel some love for his parents, then for his community, then for his country, and at last for all nations. But unless the center is right, that expansion of feeling--even if it is national or international--is not perfect.

For example, the meaning of the word national is "one who has taken birth in a particular country." You feel for other Americans because they are born in this country. You may even sacrifice your life for your countrymen. But there is a defect: If the definition of national is "one who is born in a particular country," then why are the animals born in America not considered Americans? The problem is that we are not expanding our feelings beyond the human society. Because we don't think animals are our countrymen, we send them to the slaughterhouse.

So the center of our national feeling or our international feeling is not fixed on the proper object. If the center is right, then you can draw any number of circles around that center and they'll never overlap. They'll simply keep growing, growing, growing. They'll not intersect with one another if the center is all right. Unfortunately, although everyone is feeling nationally or internationally, the center is missing. Therefore your inter-national feeling and my international feeling, your national feeling and my national feeling, are overlapping and conflicting. So we have to find the proper center for our loving feelings. Then you can expand your circle of feelings and it will not overlap or conflict with others'.

That center is Krsna.

Our society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, is teaching the people of all countries that the center of their affection should be Krsna. In other words, we are teaching people to be mahatmas. You may have heard this word mahatma before. It is a Sanskrit word that is applied to a person whose mind is expanded, whose circle of feelings is very much expanded. This is a mahatma. Maha means "big" or "great," and atma means "soul." So he who has expanded his soul very wide is called a mahatma.

The Bhagavad-gita (7.19) gives a description of the person who has expanded his feelings very wide:

 

bahunam janmanam ante

jnanavan mam prapadyate

vasudevah sarvam iti

sa mahatma su-durlabhah

 

The first idea in this verse is that one can become a mahatma only after many, many births (bahunam janmanam ante). The soul is transmigrating through many bodies, one after another. There are 8,400,000 different species of life, and we evolve through them until at last we come to the human form of life. Only then can we become a mahatma. This is why Krsna says bahunam janmanam ante: "After many, many births one may become a mahatma."

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is a similar verse. Labdhva su-durlabham idam bahu-sambhavante: "After many, many births you have achieved a human body, which is very difficult to get." This human form of life is not cheap. The bodies of cats and dogs and other animals are cheap, but this human form is not. After being born in at least 8,000,000 different species, we get this human form. So the Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad-gita say the same thing. All Vedic literatures corroborate one another, and the person who can understand them doesn't find any contradiction.

So the human form of life is obtained after many, many births in other-than-human forms of life. But even in this human form of life, many, many births are required for one who is cultivating knowledge of the central point of existence. If one is actually cultivating spiritual knowledge--not in one life but in many, many lives--one eventually comes to the highest platform of knowledge and is called jnanavan, "the possessor of true knowledge." Then, Krsna says, mam prapadyate: "He surrenders unto Me, Krsna, or God." (When I say "Krsna" I mean the Supreme Lord, the all-attractive Supreme Personality of Godhead.)

Now, why does a man in knowledge surrender to Krsna? Vasudevah sarvam iti: Because he knows that Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything--that He is the central point of all loving feelings. Then, sa mahatma su-durlabhah. Here the word mahatma is used. After cultivating knowledge for many, many births, a person who expands his consciousness up to the point of loving God--he is a mahatma, a great soul. God is great, and His devotee is also great. But, Krsna says, sa mahatma su-durlabhah: That sort of great soul is very rarely to be seen. This is the description of a mahatma we get from the Bhagavad-gita.

Now we have expanded our feelings of love to various objects. We may love our country, we may love our community, we may love our family, we may love our cats and dogs. In any case, we have love, and we expand it according to our knowledge. And when our knowledge is perfect, we come to the point of loving Krsna. That is perfection. Love of Krsna is the aim of all activities, the aim of life.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.8) confirms that the goal of life is Krsna:

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam

 

The first words in this verse are dharmah svanusthitah pumsam. This means that everyone is doing his duty according to his position. A householder has some duty, a sannyasi [renunciant] has some duty, a brahmacari [celibate student] has some duty. There are different types of duties according to different occupations or professions. But, the Bhagavatam says, if by performing your duties very nicely you still do not come to the understanding of Krsna, then whatever you have done is simply useless labor (srama eva hi kevalam). So if you want to come to the point of perfection, you should try to understand and love Krsna. Then your national or international feelings of love will actually expand to their limit.

Now, suppose a man says, "Yes, I have expanded my feelings of love very widely." That is all right, but he must show the symptoms of how his feelings of love are expanded. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (5.18):

 

vidya-vinaya-sampanne

brahmane gavi hastini

suni caiva svapake ca

panditah sama-darsinah

 

If one is actually a pandita, someone who is elevated to the stage of perfect wisdom, then he must see everyone on an equal platform (sama-darsinah). Because the vision of a pandita is no longer absorbed simply with the body, he sees a learned brahmana as a spirit soul, he sees a dog as a spirit soul, he sees an elephant as a spirit soul, and he also sees a lowborn man as a spirit soul. From the highborn brahmana down to the candala [outcaste], there are many social classes in human society, but if a man is really learned he sees everyone, every living entity, on the same level. That is the stage of true learning.

We are trying to expand our feeling socially, communally, nationally, internationally, or universally. That is our natural function--to expand our consciousness. But my point is that if we actually want to expand our consciousness to the utmost, we must find out the real center of existence. That center is Krsna, or God. How do we know Krsna is God? Krsna declares Himself to be God in the Bhagavad-gita. Please always remember that the Krsna consciousness movement is based on understanding Bhagavad-gita as it is. Whatever I am speaking is in the Bhagavad-gita. Unfortunately, the Bhagavad-gita has been misinterpreted by so many commentators that people have misunderstood it. Actually, the purport of the Bhagavad-gita is to develop Krsna consciousness, love of Krsna, and we are trying to teach that.

In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna has given several descriptions of a mahatma. He says, mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah: "A mahatma, one who is actually wise and broad-minded, is under the shelter of My spiritual energy." He is no longer under the spell of the material energy.

Whatever we see is made up of various energies of God. In the Upanisads it is said, parasya-saktir vividhaiva sruyate: "The Supreme Absolute Truth has many varieties of energies." And these energies are acting so nicely that it appears they are working automatically (svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca). For example, we have all seen a blooming flower. We may think that it has automatically blossomed and become so beautiful. But no, the material energy of God is acting.

Similarly, Krsna has a spiritual energy. And a mahatma, one who is broad-minded, is under the protection of that spiritual energy; he is not under the spell of the material energy. These things are all explained in the Bhagavad-gita. There are many verses in the Bhagavad-gita that describe how Krsna's energies are working, and our mission is to present Bhagavad-gita as it is, without any nonsensical commentary. There is no need of nonsensical commentary. Bhagavad-gita is as clear as the sunlight. Just as you don't require a lamp to see the sun, you don't require the commentary of an ignorant, common man to study the Bhagavad-gita. You should study the Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then you will get all spiritual knowledge. You will become wise and will under-stand Krsna. Then you will surrender to Him and become a mahatma.

Now, what are the activities of a mahatma? A mahatma is under the protection of Krsna's spiritual energy, but what is the symptom of that protection? Krsna says, mam. .. bhajanty ananya-manasah: "A mahatma is always engaged in devotional service to Me." That is the main symptom of a mahatma: he is always serving Krsna. Does he engage in this devotional service blindly? No. Krsna says, jnatva bhutadim avyayam: "He knows perfectly that I am the source of everything."

So Krsna explains everything in the Bhagavad-gita. And our purpose in the Krsna consciousness movement is to spread the knowledge contained in the Bhagavad-gita without adding any nonsensical commentary. Then the human society will profit from this knowledge. Now society is not in a sound condition, but if people understand the Bhagavad-gita, and if they actually broaden their outlook, all social, national, and international problems will be solved automatically. There will be no difficulty. But if we don't find out what the center of existence is, if we manufacture our own ways to expand our loving feelings, there will be only conflict--not only between individual persons but between the different nations of the world. The nations are trying to be united; in your country there is the United Nations. Unfortunately, instead of the nations becoming united, the flags are increasing. Similarly, India was once one country, Hindustan. Now there is also Pakistan. And some time in the future there will be Sikhistan and then some other "stan."

Instead of becoming united we are becoming disunited, because we are missing the center. Therefore, my request, since you are all international students, is that you please try to find out the real center of your international movement. Real inter-national feeling will be possible when you understand that the center is Krsna. Then your international movement will be perfect.

In the Fourteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita (14.4), Lord Krsna says,

 

sarva-yonisu kaunteya

murtayah sambhavanti yah

tasam brahma mahad yonir

aham bija-pradah pita

 

Here Krsna says, "I am the father of all forms of life. The material nature is the mother, and I am the seed-giving father." Without a father and mother, nobody can be born. The father gives the seed, and the mother supplies the body. In this material world the mother of every one of us--from Lord Brahma down to the ant--is the material nature. Our body is matter; therefore it is a gift of the material nature, our mother. But I, the spirit soul, am part and parcel of the supreme father, Krsna. Krsna says, mamaivamso. .. jiva-bhutah: "All these living entities are part and parcel of Me."

So if you want to broaden your feelings of fellowship to the utmost limit, please try to understand the Bhagavad-gita. You'll get enlightenment; you'll become a real mahatma. You will feel affection even for the cats and dogs and reptiles. In the Seventh Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam you'll find a statement by Narada Muni that if there is a snake in your house, you should give it something to eat. Just see how your feelings can expand! You'll care even for a snake, what to speak of other animals and human beings.

So we cannot become enlightened unless we come to the point of understanding God, or Krsna. Therefore we are preaching Krsna consciousness all over the world. The Krsna consciousness movement is not new. As I told you, it is based on the principles of the Bhagavad-gita, and the Bhagavad-gita is an ancient scripture. From the historical point of view it is five thousand years old. And from a prehistorical point of view it is millions of years old. Krsna says in the Fourth Chapter, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: "I first spoke this ancient science of yoga to the sun-god." That means Krsna first spoke the Bhagavad-gita some millions of years ago. But simply from a historical point of view, Bhagavad-gita has existed since the days of the Battle of Kuruksetra, which was fought five thousand years ago. So it is older than any other scripture in the world.

Try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is, without any unnecessary commentary. The words of the Bhagavad-gita are sufficient to give you enlightenment, but unfortunately people have taken advantage of the popularity of the Bhagavad-gita and have tried to express their own philosophy under the shelter of the Bhagavad-gita. That is useless. Try to understand the Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then you will get enlightenment; you will understand that Krsna is the center of all activities. And if you become Krsna conscious, everything will be perfect and all problems will be solved.

Thank you very much. Are there any questions?

Indian student: I don't know the exact Sanskrit from the Gita, but somewhere Krsna says, "All roads lead to Me. No matter what one does, no matter what one thinks, no matter what one is involved with, eventually he will evolve toward Me." So is enlightenment a natural evolution?

Srila Prabhupada: No, Krsna never says that whatever you do, whatever you think, you will naturally evolve toward Him. To become enlightened in Krsna consciousness is not natural for the conditioned soul. You require instruction from a spiritual master. Otherwise, why did Krsna instruct Arjuna? You have to get knowledge from a superior person and follow his instructions.

Arjuna was perplexed. He could not understand whether he should fight or not. Similarly, everyone in the material world is perplexed. So we require guidance from Krsna or his bona fide representative. Then we can become enlightened.

Evolution is natural up through the animal species. But when we come to the human form of life, we can use our own discretion. As you like, you make your choice of which path to follow. If you like Krsna, you can go to Krsna; if you like something else, you can go there. That depends on your discretion.

Everyone has a little bit of independence. At the end of the Bhagavad-gita (18.66) Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: "Just give up everything and surrender unto Me." If this surrender is natural, why would Krsna say, "You should do this"? No. Surrendering to Krsna is not natural in our materially conditioned state. We have to learn it. Therefore we must hear from a bona fide spiritual master--Krsna or His authorized representative--and follow his instructions. This will bring us to the stage of full enlightenment in Krsna consciousness.

 

The Myth of Scarcity

 

Contrary to popular belief, current statistics show that the earth produces enough food to easily support its entire population. Yet greed and exploitation force over twenty-five per cent of the world's people to be underfed and undernourished. Srila Prabhupada condemns unnecessary industrialization for contributing to the problem of hunger and for creating unemployment, pollution, and a host of other problems. In the following speech, recorded on May 2, 1973, in Los Angeles, he advocates a simpler, more natural, God-centered lifestyle.

 

ime jana-padah svrddhah

supakvausadhi-virudhah

vanadri-nady-udanvanto

hy edhante tava viksitaih

 

[Queen Kunti said:] "All these cities and villages are flourishing in all respects because the herbs and grains are in abundance, the trees are full of fruits, the rivers are flowing, the hills are full of minerals, and the oceans are full of wealth. And this is all due to Your glancing over them." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.40)

Human prosperity flourishes by natural gifts and not by gigantic industrial enterprises. The gigantic industrial enterprises are products of a godless civilization, and they cause the destruction of the noble aims of human life. The more we increase such troublesome industries to squeeze out the vital energy of the human being, the more there will be dissatisfaction of the people in general, although a select few can live lavishly by exploitation.

The natural gifts such as grains and vegetables, fruits, rivers, the hills of jewels and minerals, and the seas full of pearls are supplied by the order of the Supreme, and as He desires, material nature produces them in abundance or restricts them at times. The natural law is that the human being may take advantage of these godly gifts of nature and thus satisfactorily flourish without being captivated by the exploitative motive of lording it over material nature.

The more we attempt to exploit material nature according to our whims, the more we shall become entrapped by the reaction of such exploitative attempts. If we have sufficient grains, fruits, vegetables, and herbs, then what is the necessity of running a slaughterhouse and killing poor animals?

A man need not kill an animal if he has sufficient grains and vegetables to eat. The flow of river waters fertilizes the fields, and there is more than what we need. Minerals are produced in the hills, and the jewels in the ocean. If the human civilization has sufficient grains, minerals, jewels, water, milk, etc., then why should we hanker after terrible industrial enterprises at the cost of the labor of some unfortunate men?

But all these natural gifts are dependent on the mercy of the Lord. What we need, therefore, is to be obedient to the laws of the Lord and achieve the perfection of human life by devotional service. The indications by Kunti-devi are just to the point. She desires that God's mercy be bestowed upon her and her sons so that natural prosperity will be maintained by His grace.

Kunti-devi mentions that the grains are abundant, the trees full of fruits, the rivers flowing nicely, the hills full of minerals, and the oceans full of wealth, but she never mentions that industry and slaughterhouses are flourishing, for such things are nonsense that men have developed to create problems.

If we depend on God's creation, there will be no scarcity, but simply ananda, bliss. God's creation provides sufficient grains and grass, and while we eat the grains and fruits, the animals like the cows will eat the grass. The bulls will help us produce grains, and they will take only a little, being satisfied with what we throw away. If we take fruit and throw away the skin, the animal will be satisfied with the skin. In this way, with Krsna in the center, there can be full cooperation between the trees, animals, human beings, and all living entities. This is Vedic civilization, a civilization of Krsna consciousness.

Kunti-devi prays to the Lord, "This prosperity is due to Your glance." When we sit in the temple of Krsna, Krsna glances over us, and everything is nice. When sincere souls try to become Krsna's devotees, Krsna very kindly comes before them in His full opulence and glances upon them, and they become happy and beautiful.

Similarly, the whole material creation is due to Krsna's glance (sa aiksata). In the Vedas it is said that He glanced over matter, thus agitating it. A woman in touch with a man becomes agitated and becomes pregnant and then gives birth to children. The whole creation follows a similar process. Simply by Krsna's glance, matter becomes agitated and then becomes pregnant and gives birth to the living entities. It is simply by His glance that plants, trees, animals, and all other living beings come forth. How is this possible? None of us can say, "Simply by glancing over my wife, I can make her pregnant." But although this is impossible for us, it is not impossible for Krsna. The Brahma-samhita (5.32) says, angani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti: Every part of Krsna's body has all the capabilities of the other parts. With our eyes we can only see, but Krsna can make others pregnant merely by looking at them. There is no need of sex, for simply by glancing Krsna can create pregnancy.

In Bhagavad-gita (9.10) Lord Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: "By My supervision, material nature gives birth to all moving and nonmoving beings." The word aksa means "eyes," so aksena indicates that all living entities take birth because of the Lord's glance. There are two kinds of living entities--the moving beings, like insects, animals, and human beings, and the nonmoving beings, like trees and plants. In Sanskrit these two kinds of living entities are called sthavara-jangama, and they both come forth from material nature.

Of course, what comes from material nature is not the life, but the body. The living entities accept particular types of bodies from material nature, just as a child takes its body from its mother. For ten months the child's body develops from the blood and nutrients of the mother's body, but the child is a living entity, not matter. It is the living entity that has taken shelter in the womb of the mother, who then supplies the ingredients for that living entity's body. This is nature's way. The mother may not know how from her body another body has been created, but when the body of the child is fit, the child takes birth.

It is not that the living entity takes birth. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (2.20), na jayate mriyate va: The living entity neither takes birth nor dies. That which does not take birth does not die; death is meant for that which has been created, and that which is not created has no death. The Gita says, na jayate mriyate va kadacit. The word kadacit means "at any time." At no time does the living entity actually take birth. Although we may see that a child is born, actually it is not born. Nityah sasvato 'yam puranah. The living entity is eternal (sasvata), always existing, and very, very old (purana). Na hanyate hanyamane sarire: Don't think that when the body is destroyed the living entity will be destroyed; no, the living entity will continue to exist.

A scientist friend once asked me, "What is the proof of the soul's eternality?" Krsna says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire: "The soul is not killed when the body is killed." This statement in itself is proof. This type of proof is called sruti, the proof established by that which is heard through the disciplic succession from the Supreme. One form of proof is proof by logic (nyaya-prasthana). One can get knowledge by logic, arguments, and philosophical research. But another form of proof is sruti, proof established by hearing from authorities. A third form of proof is smrti, proof established by statements derived from the sruti. The Puranas are smrti, the Upanisads are sruti, and the Vedanta is nyaya. Of these three the sruti-prasthana, or the evidence from the sruti, is especially important.Pratyaksa, the process of receiving knowledge through direct perception, has no value, because our senses are all imperfect. For example, to us the sun looks like a small disk, but in fact it is many times larger than the earth. So what is the value of our direct perception through our eyes? We have so many senses through which we can experience knowledge--the eyes, the ears, the nose, and so on--but because these senses are imperfect, whatever knowledge we get by exercising these senses is also imperfect. Because scientists try to understand things by exercising their imperfect senses, their conclusions are always imperfect. Svarupa Damodara, a scientist among our disciples, inquired from a fellow scientist who says that life comes from matter, "If I give you the chemicals with which to produce life, will you be able to produce it?" The scientist replied, "That I do not know." This is imperfect knowledge. If you do not know, then your knowledge is imperfect. Why then have you become a teacher? That is cheating. Our contention is that to become perfect one must take lessons from the perfect teacher.

Krsna is perfect, so we take knowledge from Him. Krsna says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire: "The soul does not die when the body dies." Therefore this understanding that the soul is eternal and the body is temporary is perfect.

Kunti-devi says, ime jana-padah svrddhah supakvausadhi-virudhah: "The grains are abundant, the trees are full of fruits, the rivers are flowing, the hills are full of minerals, and the oceans are full of wealth." What more could one want? The oyster produces pearls, and formerly people decorated their bodies with pearls, valuable stones, silk, gold, and silver. But where are those things now? Now, with the advancement of civilization, there are so many beautiful girls who have no ornaments of gold, pearls, or jewels, but only plastic bangles. So what is the use of industry and slaughterhouses?

By God's arrangement one can have enough food grains, enough milk, enough fruits and vegetables, and nice clear river water. But now I have seen, while traveling in Europe, that all the rivers there have become nasty. In Germany, in France, and also in Russia and America I have seen that the rivers are nasty. By nature's way the water in the ocean is kept clear like crystal, and the same water is transferred to the rivers, but without salt, so that one may take nice water from the river. This is nature's way, and nature's way means Krsna's way. So what is the use of constructing huge waterworks to supply water?

Nature has already given us everything. If we want wealth we may collect pearls and become rich; there is no need to become rich by starting some huge factory to produce auto bodies. By such industrial enterprises we have simply created troubles. Otherwise, we need only depend on Krsna and Krsna's mercy, because by Krsna's glance (tava viksitaih), everything is set right. So if we simply plead for Krsna's glance, there will be no question of scarcity or need. Everything will be complete. The idea of the Krsna consciousness movement, therefore, is to depend on nature's gifts and the grace of Krsna.

People say that the population is increasing, and therefore they are checking this by artificial means. Why? The birds and beasts are increasing their populations and have no contraceptives, but are they in need of food? Do we ever see birds or animals dying for want of food? Perhaps in the city, although not very often. But if we go to the jungle we shall see that all the elephants, lions, tigers, and other animals are very stout and strong. Who is supplying them with food? Some of them are vegetarians and some of them are nonvegetarians, but none of them are in want of food.

Of course, by nature's way the tiger, being a nonvegetarian, does not get food every day. After all, who will face a tiger to become its food? Who will say to the tiger, "Sir, I am an altruist and have come to you to give you food, so take my body"? No one. Therefore the tiger has difficulty finding food. And as soon as the tiger is out, there is an animal that follows it and makes a sound like "fayo, fayo," so that the other animals will know, "Now the tiger is out." So by nature's way the tiger has difficulty. But still Krsna supplies it food. After about a week, the tiger will get the chance to catch an animal, and because it does not get fresh food daily, it will keep the carcass in some bush and eat a little at a time. Since the tiger is very powerful, people want to become like a lion or a tiger. But that is not a very good proposition, because if one actually becomes like a tiger one won't get food daily, but will have to search for food with great labor. If one becomes a vegetarian, however, one will get food every day. The food for a vegetarian is available everywhere.

Now in every city there are slaughterhouses, but does this mean that the slaughterhouses can supply enough so that one can live by eating only meat? No, there will not be an adequate supply. Even meat-eaters have to eat grains, fruits, and vegetables along with their slice of meat. Still, for that daily slice of meat they kill so many poor animals. How sinful this is! If people commit such sinful activities, how can they be happy? This killing should not be done, but because it is being done people are unhappy. However, if one becomes Krsna conscious and simply depends on Krsna's glance (tava viksitaih), Krsna will supply everything and there will be no question of scarcity.

Sometimes there appears to be scarcity, and sometimes we find that grains and fruits are produced in such a huge quantity that people cannot finish eating them. So this is a question of Krsna's glance. If Krsna likes, He can produce a huge quantity of grains, fruits, and vegetables, but if Krsna desires to restrict the supply, what good will meat do? You may eat me, or I may eat you, but that will not solve the problem.

For real peace and tranquillity and a sufficient supply of milk, water, and everything else we need, we simply have to depend on Krsna. This is what Bhaktivinoda Thakura teaches us when he says, marabi rakhabi--yo iccha tohara: "My dear Lord, I simply surrender unto You and depend on You. Now if You like You may kill me, or else You may give me protection." And Krsna says in reply, "Yes. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: Simply surrender exclusively unto Me." He does not say, "Yes, depend on Me, and also depend on your slaughterhouses and factories." No. He says, "Depend only on Me. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: I will rescue you from the results of your sinful activities."

Because we have lived so many years without being Krsna conscious, we have lived only a sinful life, but Krsna assures us that as soon as one surrenders to Him, He immediately squares all accounts and puts an end to all one's sinful activities so that one may begin a new life. When we initiate disciples we therefore tell them, "Now the account is squared. Now don't commit sinful activities any more."

One should not think that because the holy name of Krsna can nullify sinful activities, one may commit a little sinful activity and chant Hare Krsna to nullify it. That is the greatest offense (namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih). The members of some religious orders go to church and confess their sins, but then they again commit the same sinful activities. What, then, is the value of their confession? One may confess, "My Lord, out of my ignorance I committed this sin." But one should not plan, "I shall commit sinful activities and then go to church and confess them, and then the sins will be nullified and I can begin a new chapter of sinful life." Similarly, one should not knowingly take advantage of the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra to nullify sinful activities so that one may then begin sinful acts again. We should be very careful. Before taking initiation, one promises to have no illicit sex, no intoxicants, no gambling, and no meat-eating, and this vow one should strictly follow. Then one will be clean. If one keeps oneself clean in this way and always engages in devotional service, his life will be a success, and there will be no scarcity of anything he wants.

 

Spiritual Advice to Businessmen

 

On January 30, 1973, in Calcutta, Srila Prabhupada speaks to the Bharata Chamber of Commerce, a group of the region's leading businessmen. "We should not be satisfied with becoming a big businessman. We must know what our next life is.... If you cultivate this knowledge and at the same time go on doing your business, your life will be successful."

 

Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for kindly inviting me. I'll serve you to the best of my ability.

Today's subject is "Culture and Business." We understand business to mean "occupational duty." According to our Vedic culture, there are different types of business. As described in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. The four divisions of the social system, based on people's qualities and types of work, are the brahmanas [intellectuals and teachers], the ksatriyas [military men and state leaders], the vaisyas [farmers and merchants], and the sudras [laborers]. Before doing business, one must know what kinds of work there are and who can do what kind of work. People have different capabilities, and there are different types of work, but now we have created a society where everyone takes up everyone else's business. That is not very scientific.

Society has natural cultural divisions, just as there are natural divisions in the human body. The whole body is one unit, but it has different departments, also--for example, the head department, the arm department, the belly department, and the leg department. This is scientific. So in society the head department is represented by the brahmana, the arm department by the ksatriya, the belly department by the vaisya, and the leg department by the sudra. Business should be divided scientifically in this way.

The head department is the most important department, because without the head the other departments--the arm, the belly, and the leg--cannot function. If the arm department is lacking, business can still go on. If the leg department is lacking, business can go on. But if the head department is not there--if your head is cut off from your body--then even though you have arms, legs, and a belly, they are all useless.

The head is meant for culture. Without culture, every type of business creates confusion and chaos. And that is what we have at the present moment, because of jumbling of different types of business. So there must be one section of people, the head department, who give advice to the other departments. These advisors are the intelligent and qualified brahmanas.

 

samo damas tapah saucam

ksantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma-karma svabhava-jam

 

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom, and religiousness--these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work." [Bhagavad-gita 18.42)

The brahmanas, the head of the social body, are meant to guide society in culture. Culture means knowing the aim of life. Without understanding the aim of life, a man is a ship without a rudder. But at the present moment we are missing the goal of life because there is no head department in society. The whole human society is now lacking real brahmanas to give advice to the other departments.

Arjuna is a good example of how a member of the ksatriya department should take advice. He was a military man; his business was to fight. In the Battle of Kuruksetra he engaged in his business, but at the same time he took the advice of the brahmanya-deva, Lord Krsna. As it is said,

 

namo brahmanya-devaya

go-brahmana-hitaya ca

jagad-dhitaya krsnaya

govindaya namo namah

 

"Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Lord Krsna, who is the worshipable Deity for all brahminical men, who is the well-wisher of cows and brahmanas, and who is always benefiting the whole world. I offer my repeated obeisances to the Personality of Godhead, known as Krsna and Govinda." (Visnu Purana 1.19.65)

In this verse the first things taken into consideration are the cows and the brahmanas (go-brahmana). Why are they stressed? Because a society with no brahminical culture and no cow protection is not a human society but a chaotic, animalistic society. And any business you do in a chaotic condition will never be perfect. business can be done nicely only in a society following a proper cultural system.

Instructions for a perfect cultural system are given in Srimad-Bhagavatam. At a meeting in the forest of Naimisaranya, where many learned scholars and brahmanas had assembled and Srila Suta Gosvami was giving instructions, he stressed the varnasrama social system (atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah). The Vedic culture organizes society into four varnas [occupational divisions] and four asramas [spiritual stages of life]. As mentioned before, the varnas are the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra. The asramas are the brahmacari-asrama [celibate student life], grhastha-asrama [family life], vanaprastha-asrama [retired life], and sannyasa-asrama [renounced life]. Unless we take to this institution of varnasrama-dharma, the whole society will be chaotic.

And the purpose of varnasrama-dharma is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. As stated in the Visnu Purana (3.8.9),

 

varnasramacaravata

purusena parah puman

visnur aradhyate pantha

nanyat tat-tosa-karanam

 

According to this verse, one has to satisfy the Supreme Lord by properly performing one's prescribed duties according to the system of varna and asrama. In a state, you have to satisfy your government. If you don't, you are a bad citizen and cause chaos in society. Similarly, in the cosmic state--that is, in this material creation as a whole--if you do not satisfy the Supreme Lord, the proprietor of everything, then there will be a chaotic condition. Our Vedic culture teaches that whatever you do, you must satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is real culture.Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah. You may do any business--the brahmana's business, the ksatriya's business, the vaisya's business, or the sudra's business--but by your business you should satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You may be a merchant, a professional man, a legal advisor, a medical man--it doesn't matter. But if you want perfection in your business, then you must try to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise you are simply wasting your time.

In Bhagavad-gita (3.9), Lord Krsna says, yajnarthat karmanah. The word yajna refers to Visnu, or Krsna, the Supreme Lord. You have to work for Him. Otherwise you become bound by the reactions of your activities (anyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah). And as long as you are in the bondage of karma, you have to transmigrate from one body to another.

Unfortunately, at the present moment people do not know that there is a soul and that the soul transmigrates from one body to another. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (2.13), tatha dehantara-praptih: "When the body dies, the soul transmigrates to another body." I've talked with big, big scientists and professors who do not know that there is life after death. They do not know. But according to our Vedic information, there is life after death. And we can experience transmigration of the soul in this present life. It is a very common thing: A baby soon gets the body of a boy, the boy then gets the body of a young man, and the young man gets the body of an old man. Similarly, the old man, after the annihilation of his body, will get another body. It is quite natural and logical.

Actually, we have two bodies, the gross body and the subtle body. The gross body is made up of our senses and the bodily elements--bones, blood, and so on. When we change our body at death, the present gross body is destroyed, but the subtle body, made of mind, intelligence, and ego, is not. The subtle body carries us to our next gross body.

It is just like what happens when we sleep. At night we forget about the gross body, and the subtle body alone works. As we dream we are taken away from our home, from our bed, to some other place, and we completely forget the gross body. When our sleep is over we forget about the dream and become attached again to the gross body. This is going on in our daily experience.

So we are the observer, sometimes of the gross body and sometimes of the subtle body. Both bodies are changing, but we are the unchanging observer, the soul within the bodies. Therefore, our inquiry should be, "What is my position? At night I forget my gross body, and during the daytime I forget my subtle body. Then what is my real body?" These are the questions we should ask.

So you may do your business, as Arjuna did his business. He was a fighter, a ksatriya, but he did not forget his culture, hearing Gita from the master. But if you simply do business and do not cultivate your spiritual life, then your business is a useless waste of time (srama eva hi kevalam).

Our Krsna consciousness movement is being spread so that you do not forget your cultural life. We do not say that you stop your business and become a sannyasi like me and give up everything. We do not say that. Nor did Krsna say that. Krsna never said, "Arjuna, give up your fighting business." No, He said, "Arjuna, you are a ksatriya. You are declining to fight, saying, 'Oh, it is very abominable.' You should not say that. You must fight." That was Krsna's instruction.

Similarly, we Krsna conscious people are also advising everyone, "Don't give up your business. Go on with your business, but simply hear about Krsna." Caitanya Mahaprabhu also said this, quoting from Srimad-Bhagavatam: sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. Caitanya Mahaprabhu never said, "Give up your position." Giving up one's position is not very difficult. But to cultivate spiritual knowledge while one stays in his position--that is required. Among the animals there is no cultivation of spiritual life. That is not possible; the animals cannot cultivate this knowledge. Therefore, if human beings do not cultivate spiritual knowledge, they're exactly like animals (dharmena hinah pasubhih samanah).

So we should be very conscious about our eternal existence. We, the spirit soul within the body, are eternal (na hanyate hanyamane sarire). We are not going to die after the annihilation of our body. This is the cultivation of knowledge, or brahma-jijnasa, which means inquiry about one's self. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's first disciple, Sanatana Gosvami, was formerly finance minister in the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. Then he retired and approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu and humbly said, "My dear Lord, people call me pandita." (Because he was a brahmana by caste, naturally he was called pandita, meaning "a learned person.") "But I am such a pandita," he said, "that I do not even know who or what I am."

This is the position of everyone. You may be a businessman or you may be in another profession, but if you do not know what you are, wherefrom you have come, why you are under the tribulations of the laws of material nature, and where you are going in your next life--if you do not know these things, then whatever you are doing is useless. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.8),

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam

 

"The occupational activities a man performs according to his own position are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead." Therefore our request to everyone is that while you engage in your business, in whatever position Krsna has posted you, do your duty nicely, but do not forget to cultivate Krsna knowledge.

Krsna knowledge means God consciousness. We must know that we are part and parcel of God (mamaivamso jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah). We are eternally part and parcel of Krsna, or God, but we are now struggling with the mind and senses (manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati). Why this struggle for existence? We must inquire about our eternal life beyond this temporary life. Suppose in this temporary life I become a big businessman for, say, twenty years or fifty years or at the utmost one hundred years. There is no guarantee that in my next life I'm going to be a big businessman. No. There is no such guarantee. But this we do not care about. We are taking care of our present small span of life, but we are not taking care of our eternal life. That is our mistake.

In this life I may be a very great businessman, but in my next life, by my karma, I may become something else. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsatih: There are 900,000 forms of life in the water, and 2,000,000 forms of trees and other plants. Then, krmayo rudra-sankhyakah paksinam dasa-laksanam: There are 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and 1,000,000 species of birds. Finally, trimsal-laksani pasavah catur-laksani manusah: There are 3,000,000 varieties of beasts and 400,000 human species. So we must pass through 8,000,000 different forms of life before we come to the human form of life.

Therefore Prahlada Maharaja says,

 

kaumara acaret prajno

dharman bhagavatan iha

durlabham manusam janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

 

"One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life--in other words, from the tender age of childhood--to practice the activities of devotional service. The human body is most rarely achieved, and although temporary like other bodies, it is meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give one complete perfection." (Bhag. 7.6.1) This human birth is very rare. We should not be satisfied simply with becoming a big businessman. We must know what our next life is, what we are going to be.

There are different kinds of men. Some are called karmis, some are called jnanis, some are called yogis, and some are called bhaktas. The karmis are after material happiness. They want the best material comforts in this life, and they want to be elevated to the heavenly planets after death. The jnanis also want happiness, but being fed up with the materialistic way of life, they want to merge into the existence of Brahman, the Absolute. The yogis want mystic power. And the bhaktas, the devotees, simply want the service of the Lord. But unless one understands who the Lord is, how can one render service to Him? So cultivating knowledge of God is the highest culture.

There are different kinds of culture: the culture of the karmis, the culture of the jnanis, the culture of the yogis, and the culture of the bhaktas. Actually, all of these people are called yogis if they are doing their duty sincerely. Then they are known as karma-yogis, jnana-yogis, dhyana-yogis, and bhakti-yogis. But in Bhagavad-gita (6.47) Krsna says,

 

yoginam api sarvesam

mad-gatenantaratmana

sraddhavan bhajate yo mam

sa me yuktatamo matah

 

Who is the first-class yogi? Krsna answers, "He who is always thinking of Me." This means the Krsna conscious person is the best yogi. As already mentioned, there are different kinds of yogis (the karma-yogi, the jnana-yogi, the dhyana-yogi, and the bhakti-yogi), but the best yogi is he who always thinks of Krsna within himself with faith and love. One who is rendering service to the Lord--he is the first-class yogi.

So we request everyone to try to know what he is, what Krsna is, what his relationship with Krsna is, what his real life is, and what the goal of his life is. Unless we cultivate all this knowledge, we are simply wasting our time, wasting our valuable human form of life. Although everyone will die--that's a fact--one who dies after knowing these things is benefited. His life is successful.

The cat will die, the dog will die--everyone will die. But one who dies knowing Krsna--oh, that is a successful death. As Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (4.9),

 

janma karma ca me divyam

evam yo vetti tattvatah

tyaktva deham punar janma

naiti mam eti so 'rjuna

 

"One who knows in truth the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."

So wherever we go all over the world, our only request is, "Please try to understand Krsna. Then your life is successful." It doesn't matter what your business is. You have to do something to live. Krsna says, sarira-yatrapi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmanah: If you stop working, your life will be hampered. One has to do something for his livelihood, but at the same time he has to cultivate knowledge for the perfection of his life. The perfection of life is simple: try to understand Krsna. This is what we are pre-scribing all over the world. It is not very difficult. If you read Bhagavad-gita As It Is, you will come to understand Krsna. Krsna explains everything.

For the neophytes, Krsna says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh: "My dear Kaunteya, I am the taste of water, and I am the light of the sun and the moon." There is no need to say, "I cannot see God." Here is God: the taste of water is God. Everyone drinks water, and when one tastes it he is perceiving God. Then why do you say, "I cannot see God"? Think as God directs, and then gradually you'll see Him. Simply remember this one instruction from Bhagavad-gita--raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh: "I am the taste of water; I am the shining illumination of the sun and moon." Who has not seen the sunlight? Who has not seen the moonlight? Who has not tasted water? Then why do you say, "I have not seen God"? If you simply practice this bhakti-yoga, as soon as you taste water and feel satisfied you will think, "Oh, here is Krsna." Immediately you will remember Krsna. As soon as you see the sunshine, you will remember, "Oh, here is Krsna." As soon as you see the moonshine, you will remember, "Oh, here is Krsna." And sabdah khe: As soon as you hear some sound in the sky, you will remember, "Here is Krsna."

In this way, you will remember Krsna at every step of your life. And if you remember Krsna at every step of life, you become the topmost yogi. And above all, if you practice the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, you will easily remember Krsna. There is no tax. There is no loss to your business. If you chant the Hare Krsna mantra, if you remember Krsna while drinking water, what is your loss? Why don't you try it? This is the real culture of knowledge. If you cultivate this knowledge and at the same time go on doing your business, your life will be successful. Thank you very much.

 

Ancient Prophecies Fulfilled

 

A little-known fact is that a book written over five thousand years ago-- Srimad-Bhagavatam--predicted many current trends and events with amazing accuracy. Srila Prabhupada quotes profusely from this Sanskrit text in a lecture given at the Los Angeles Hare Krsna temple during the summer of 1974. About present day society, the Srimad-Bhagavatam's twelfth canto prophesies: "Religious principles will be determined by a show of strength [and] measured by a person's reputation for material accomplishments." And: "Those without money will be unable to get justice, and anyone who can cleverly juggle words will be considered a scholar."

 

tatas canudinam dharmah

satyam saucam ksama daya

kalena balina rajan

nanksyaty ayur balam smrtih

 

"My dear King, with each day religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, forgiveness, mercy, duration of life, bodily strength, and memory will all decrease more and more by the mighty force of time." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.1)

This description of the Kali-yuga [the present age of quarrel and hypocrisy] is given in the Twelfth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Srimad-Bhagavatam was written five thousand years ago, when the Kali-yuga was about to begin, and many things that would happen in the future are spoken of there. Therefore we accept Srimad-Bhagavatam as sastra [revealed scripture]. The compiler of sastra (the sastra-kara) must be a liberated person so that he can describe past, present, and future.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam you will find many things which are foretold. There is mention of Lord Buddha's appearance and Lord Kalki's appearance. (Lord Kalki will appear at the end of the Kali-yuga.) There is also mention of Lord Caitanya's appearance. Although the Bhagavatam was written five thousand years ago, the writer knew past, present, and future (tri-kala-jna), and thus he could predict all these events with perfect accuracy.

So here Sukadeva Gosvami is describing the chief symptoms of this age. He says, tatas canudinam: With the progress of this age [Kali-yuga], dharma, religious principles; satyam, truthfulness; saucam, cleanliness; ksama, forgiveness; daya, mercifulness; ayuh, duration of life; balam, bodily strength; smrti, memory--these eight things will gradually decrease to nil or almost nil.

Of course, there are other yugas besides Kali-yuga. During the Satya-yuga, which lasted eighteen hundred thousand years, human beings lived for one hundred thousand years. The duration of the next age, the Treta-yuga, was twelve hundred thousand years, and the people of that age used to live for ten thousand years. In other words, the duration of life was ten times reduced. In the next age, Dvapara-yuga, the life span was again ten times reduced--people used to live for one thousand years--and the duration of the Dvapara Age was eight hundred thousand years. Then, in the next age, this Kali-yuga, we can live up to one hundred years at the utmost. We are not living one hundred years, but still, the limit is one hundred years. So just see: from one hundred years the average duration of life has decreased to about seventy years. And it will eventually decrease to the point where if a man lives for twenty to thirty years, he will be considered a very old man.

Another symptom of the Kali-yuga predicted in the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the decrease in memory (smrti). We see nowadays that people do not have very sharp memories--they forget easily. They may hear something daily, yet still they forget it. Similarly, bodily strength (balam) is decreasing. You can all understand this, because you know that your father or grandfather was physically stonger than you are. So, bodily strength is decreasing, memory is decreasing, and the duration of life is decreasing--and all of this is predicted in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Another symptom of Kali-yuga is the decrease in religion. There is practically no question of religion in this age--it has almost decreased to nil. No one is interested in religion. The churches and temples are being closed, locked up. The building we are sitting in was once a church, but it was sold because no one was coming. Similarly, we are purchasing a very big church in Australia, and in London I have seen many hundreds of vacant churches--no one is going there. And not only churches: in India also, except for a few important temples, the ordinary, small temples are being closed. They have become the habitation of the dogs. So dharma, religion, is decreasing.

Truthfulness, cleanliness, and forgiveness are also decreasing. Formerly, if someone did something wrong, the other party would forgive him. For example, Arjuna was tortured by his enemies, yet still, on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra he said, "Krsna, let me leave. I don't want to kill them." This is forgiveness. But now, even for a small insult people will kill. This is going on. Also, there is now no mercifulness (daya). Even if you see someone being killed in front of you, you will not take interest. These things are happening already. So, religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, forgiveness, mercifulness, duration of life, bodily strength, and memory--these eight things will decrease, decrease, decrease, decrease. When you see these symptoms, you should know the age of Kali is making progress.

Another symptom is vittam eva kalau nrnam janmacara-gunodayah: "In Kali-yuga, a man's qualities and social position will be calculated according to the extent of his wealth." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.2) Formerly a man's position was calculated according to his spiritual understanding. For example, a brahmana was honored because he knew brahma--he was aware of the Supreme Spirit. But now in Kali-yuga there are actually no brahmanas, because people are taking the title of brahmana simply by janma, or birthright. Previously there was also birthright, but one was actually known according to his behavior. If a man was born in a brahmana family or a ksatriya [administrative or military] family, he had to behave like a brahmana or ksatriya. And it was the king's duty to see that no one was falsely representing himself. In other words, respectability was awarded according to culture and education. But nowadays, vittam eva kalau nrnam: if you get money somehow or other, then everything is available. You may be a third-class or a fourth-class or a tenth-class man, but if you get money somehow or other, then you are very much respected. There is no question of your culture or education or knowledge. This is Kali-yuga.

Another symptom of Kali-yuga: dharma-nyaya-vyavasthayam karanam balam eva hi. "Religious principles and justice will be determined by a show of strength." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.2) If you have some influence, then everything will be decided in your favor. You may be the most irreligious person, but if you can bribe a priest he will certify that you are religious. So character will be decided by money, not by actual qualification. Next is dam-patye 'bhirucir hetur mayaiva vyavaharike: "Marriages will be arranged according to temporary affection, and to be a successful businessman, one will have to cheat." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.3) The relationship between husband and wife will depend on abhiruci, their liking each other. If a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl, then they think, "All right, now let the marriage take place." No one ever knows what the future of the girl and boy will be. Therefore everyone becomes unhappy. Six months after marriage--divorce. This is because the marriage took place simply on the basis of superficial liking, not deep understanding.

Formerly, at least in India during my time, marriages did not take place because the boy and girl liked each other. No. Marriages were decided by the parents. I married when I was a student, but I did not know who my wife would be; my parents arranged everything. Another example is Dr. Rajendra Prasada, the first president of India. In his biography he wrote that he married at the age of eight. Similarly, my father-in-law married when he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law when she was seven. So the point is that formerly, in India, marriage took place only after an astrological calculation of past, present, and future had determined whether the couple would be happy in their life together. When marriage is thus sanctified, the man and the woman live peacefully and practice spiritual culture. Each one helps the other, so they live very happily and become advanced in spiritual life. And at last they go back home, back to Godhead. That is the system. Not that a grown-up girl and a grown-up boy mix together, and if he likes her and she likes him they get married, and then he leaves or she leaves... This kind of marriage was not sanctioned. But of this Kali-yuga it is said, dam-patye 'bhirucih: Marriage will take place simply because of mutual liking, that's all. Liking one moment means disliking the next moment. That is a fact. So a marriage based on mutual liking has no value.

The next symptoms of this age are stritve pumstve ca hi ratir vipratve sutram eva hi: "A husband and wife will stay together only as long as there is sex attraction, and brahmanas [saintly intellectuals] will be known only by their wearing a sacred thread." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.3) Brahmanas are offered a sacred thread. So now people are thinking, "Now I have a sacred thread, so I have become a brahmana. I may act like a candala [dog-eater], but it doesn't matter." This is going on. One doesn't understand that as a brahmana he has so much responsibility. Simply because he has the two-cent sacred thread, he thinks he has become a brahmana. And stritve pumstve ca hi ratih: A husband and wife will remain together because they like each other, but as soon as there will be some sex difficulty, their affection will slacken.

Another symptom of Kali-yuga is avrttya nyaya-daurbalyam panditye capalam vacah: "Those without money will be unable to get justice, and anyone who can cleverly juggle words will be considered a scholar." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.4) If you have no money, then you will never get justice in court. This is Kali-yuga. Nowadays even the high-court judges are taking bribes to give you a favorable judgment. But if you have no money, then don't go to court. And panditye capalam vacah. If a man can talk expertly--it doesn't matter what he says, and nobody has to understand it--then he is a pandita. He is a learned scholar. [Imitating gibberish:] "Aban gulakslena bugavad tugalad kulela gundulas, by the latricism of wife... " Like this, if you go on speaking, no one will understand you. [Laughter.] Yet people will say, "Ah, see how learned he is." [Laughter.] This is actually happening. There are so many rascals writing books, but if you ask one of them to explain what he has understood, he'll say, "Oh, it is inexplicable." These things are going on.

Next Srimad-Bhagavatam says,

 

anadhyataivasadhutve

sadhutve dambha eva tu

svikara eva codvahe

snanam eva prasadhanam

 

"Poverty will be looked on as dishonorable, while a hypocrite who can put on a show will be thought pious. Marriage will be based on arbitrary agreement, and simply taking a bath will be considered proper cleansing and decoration of the body." [Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.5)

First, anadhyata: If you are a poor man, then you are dishonorable. People will think that a man is not honorable because he does not know how to earn money by hook or crook. And svikara eva codvahe: Marriages will take place by agreement. This is being experienced in your country, and in my country also. The government appoints a marriage magistrate, and any boy and girl who want to can simply go to him and get married. Maybe there is some fee. "Yes, we agree to marry," they say, and he certifies that they are married. Formerly, the father and mother used to select the bride and bridegroom by consulting an astrologer who could see the future. Nowadays marriage is taking place according to svikara, agreement.

Another symptom is dure vary-ayanam tirtham lavanyam kesa-dharanam: "Just going to some faraway river will be considered a proper pilgrimage, and a man will think he is beautiful if he has long hair." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.6) Just see how perfectly Srimad-Bhagavatam predicts the future! "In Kali-yuga a man will think he has become very beautiful by keeping long hair." You have very good experience of this in your country. Who could have known that people would be interested in keeping long hair? Yet that is stated in the Bhagavatam: kesa-dharanam. Kesa means "long hair" and dharanam means "keeping." Another symptom is dure vary-ayanam tirtham: People will think that a place of pilgrimage must be far away. For example, the Ganges flows through Calcutta, but no one cares to take a bath in the Calcutta Ganges; they'd rather go to Hardwar. It is the same Ganges. The Ganges is coming from Hardwar down to the Bay of Bengal. But people would rather suffer so much hardship to go to Hardwar and take a bath there, because that has become a tirtha, a place of pilgrimage. Every religion has a tirtha. The Muslims have Mecca and Medina, and the Christians have Golgotha. Similarly, the Hindus also think they must travel very far to find a tirtha. But actually, tirthi-kurvanti tirthani: a tirtha is a place where there are saintly persons. That is a tirtha. Not that one goes ten thousand miles and simply takes a dip in the water and then comes back.

The next symptoms are:

 

udaram-bharata svarthah

satyatve dharstyam eva hi

daksyam kutumba-bharanam

yaso-'rthe dharma-sevanam

 

"The purpose of life will consist simply of filling one's stomach, and audacity will become equivalent to conclusive truth. If a man can even maintain his own family members, he will be honored as very expert, and religiosity will be measured by a person's reputation for material accomplishments." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.6) So, if somehow one can eat very sumptuously, then he will think all his interests are fulfilled. People will be very hungry, with nothing to eat, and therefore if they can eat very sumptuously on one day, that will be the fulfillment of all their desires. The next symptom is satyatve dharstyam eva hi: Anyone who is expert at word jugglery will be considered very truthful. Another symptom, daksyam kutumba-bharanam: One shall be considered very expert if he can maintain his family--his wife and children. In other words, this will become very difficult. In fact, it has already become difficult. To maintain a wife and two children is now a great burden. Therefore no one wants to marry.

The next verse describes what will happen when all the people have been thus infected by the poison of Kali-yuga.

 

evam prajabhir dustabhir

akirne ksiti-mandale

brahma-vit-ksatra-sudranam

yo bali bhavita nrpah

 

It won't matter whether one is a brahmana [a learned and pure intellectual] or a ksatriya [an administrator or soldier] or a vaisya [a merchant or farmer] or a sudra [a laborer] or a candala [a dog-eater]. If one is powerful in getting votes, he will occupy the presidential or royal post. Formerly the system was that only a ksatriya could occupy the royal throne, not a brahmana, vaisya, or sudra. But now, in the Kali-yuga, there is no such thing as a ksatriya or a brahmana. Now we have democracy. Anyone who can get your votes by hook or crook can occupy the post of leader. He may be rascal number one, but he will be given the supreme, exalted presidential post. The Bhagavatam describes these leaders in the next verse:

 

praja hi lubdhai rajanyair

nirghrnair dasyu-dharmabhih

acchinna-dara-dravina

yasyanti giri-kananam

 

"The citizens will be so oppressed by merciless rogues in the guise of rulers that they will give up their spouses and property and flee to the hills and forests." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.2.8) So, the men who acquire a government post by vote are mostly lubdhai rajanyaih, greedy government men. Nirghrnair dasyu: Their business is plundering the public. And we actually see that every year the government men are exacting heavy taxes, and whatever money is received they divide among themselves, while the citizens' condition remains the same. Every government is doing that. Gradually, all people will feel so much harassed that acchinna-dara-dravinah: They will want to give up their family life (their wife and their money) and go to the forest. This we have also seen.

So, kaler dosa-nidhe rajan: The faults of this age are just like an ocean. If you were put into the Pacific Ocean, you would not know how to save your life. Even if you were a very expert swimmer, it would not be possible for you to cross the Pacific Ocean. Similarly, the Kali-yuga is described in the Bhagavatam as an ocean of faults. It is infected with so many anomalies that there seems to be no way out. But there is one medicine: kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet. The Bhagavatam explains that if you chant the name of Krsna--the Hare Krsna mantra--you will be relieved from the infection of this Kali-yuga.

Thank you very much.

 

Slaughterhouse Civilization

 

In June of 1974, at the Hare Krsna movement's rural community near Valencey, France, Srila Prabhupada talks to a group of intimate disciples. He points out that modern civilization's hunger for meat and its extensive system of vicious and barbaric slaughtering facilities bring karmic re-actions in the form of world wars, which Srila Prabhupada refers to as "slaughterhouses for humankind."

 

Yogesvara dasa: The other day, Srila Prabhupada, you were saying that in India, at least until recently, it was forbidden to eat cows--that those who ate meat would eat only lower animals like dogs and goats.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. For meat-eaters, that is what the Vedic culture recommends: "Eat dogs." As in Korea they are eating dogs, so you also can eat dogs. But don't eat cows until after they have died a natural death. We don't say, "Don't eat." You are so very fond of eating cows. All right, you can eat them, because after their death we have to give them to somebody, some living entity. Generally, cow carcasses are given to the vultures. But then, why only to the vultures? Why not to the modern "civilized" people, who are as good as vultures? [Laughter.]

These so-called civilized people--what is the difference between these rascals and vultures? The vultures also enjoy killing and then eating the dead body. "Make it dead and then enjoy"--people have become vultures. And their civilization is a vulture civilization. Animal-eaters--they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. Flesh is not proper food for human beings. Here in the Vedic culture is civilized food, human food: milk, fruit, vegetables, nuts, grains. Let them learn it. Uncivilized rogues, vultures, raksasas [demons]--and they're leaders.

Therefore I say that today the leaders are all fourth-class men. And that is why the whole world is in a chaotic condition. We require learned spiritual teachers--first-class men--to lead. My disciples are training to become first-class men. If people will take our advice, then everything will be all right. What is the use of fourth-class men leading a confused and chaotic society?

If I speak so frankly, people will be very angry. But basically, their leaders are all fourth class. First-class men are great devotees of the Lord, who can guide the administrators and the citizens through their words and practical example. Second-class men are administrative, military men, who look after the smooth running of the government and the safety of the citizens. And third-class men are farmers, who grow crops and protect the cows. But today who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class men's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class or lower. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh (Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.19): People are living just like animals--without regulative, spiritual principles--and from among themselves they are electing the biggest animals. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks--no regulative principles.

But human life is meant for regulative principles. We are insisting that our students follow regulative principles--no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling--just to make them real human beings. Without regulative principles it is animal life. Animal life.

In the human form of life, after passing through millions of lives in the plant and animal species, the spirit soul gets the chance to take up the yoga system--and yoga means strict regulative principles. Indriya-samyamah--controlling the senses. That is the real yoga system. But today most people, though they may say they are practicing yoga, are misusing it. Just like the animals, they cannot control their senses. As human beings, they have higher intelligence; they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. Na yat-karna-pathopetah: One who has not heard the message of Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead--even for a moment--he's an animal. The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals. They are on the level of dogs, hogs, camels, and asses.

Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality for accepting the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing their so-called education the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service. We have this experience in India. There are so many educated men who are unemployed--because they have been educated as dogs. They must find a master; otherwise they have no power to work independently. Just like a dog--unless he finds a master, he is a street dog, loitering in the street.

Bhagavan dasa Gosvami: So many Ph.D.'s are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck drivers or taxi drivers.

Yogesvara dasa: They're supposed to be the educated class too--brahmanas.

Srila Prabhupada: No, they are not brahmanas. Those who give education in exchange for money--they are not brahmanas. For instance, we are lecturing, educating people. We don't say, "Give us a salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." That is why we are cooking food and holding so many free festivals. "We'll give you food. We'll give you a comfortable seat. Please come and hear about self-realization and God consciousness." We are not asking money--"First of all pay the fee; then you can come and learn Bhagavad-gita." We never say that. But these so-called teachers who first of all bargain for a salary--"What salary will you give me?"--that is a dog's concern. That is not a brahmana's concern. A brahmana will never ask about a salary. A brahmana is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated; be a human being"--this is a brahmana's concern: You see? I came here not to ask for any money but to give instruction.

Bhagavan dasa Gosvami: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly--or else they'll be fired and get no salary. And the politicians--they're also afraid to say what they really believe. They're afraid that they'll be voted out or get no more money to support themselves.

Srila Prabhupada: The priests are after money. They are not first class; they are low-class men. This is the reason that Christianity has fallen down. The priests cannot speak straightforwardly. There is a straightforward commandment--"Thou shalt not kill." But because people are already killing, the priests are afraid to present the commandment straightforwardly. Now they are even granting man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests are sermonizing on this idea of man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become! Previously was there any conception like this, at least outside America? Nobody thought that a man could be married to another man. What is this? And the priests are supporting it. Do you know that? So what is their standard?

Jyotirmayi-devi dasi: That priest who visited was telling you that he was asking all his parishioners to follow God's law. So you asked him if he was going to get them to follow the fifth commandment, the law against killing--including animal-killing and especially cow-killing.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this is our proposal: "Why should you kill the cow? Let the cow be protected." You can take the cow's milk and use this milk for making so many nutritious, delicious preparations. Aside from that, as far as meat-eating is concerned, every cow will die--so you just wait a while, and there will be so many dead cows. Then you can take all the dead cows and eat. So how is this a bad proposal? If you say, "You are restraining us from meat-eating"--no, we don't restrain you. We simply ask you, "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you can eat it."

Yogesvara dasa: You've pointed out that the cow is just like a mother.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. She gives us her milk.

Yogesvara dasa: But in the West now, when their parents grow old the people generally send them away to old age homes. So if people have no compassion even toward their own parents, how can we educate them to protect the cow?

Srila Prabhupada: They don't have to protect the cow. We shall protect the cow. Simply we ask them, "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after her death." Where is the difficulty?

Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami: Not enough meat fast enough--they're eating so much meat.

Srila Prabhupada: "Not enough"? By killing the cows, how will you get any more meat? The total number of cows will remain the same. Simply wait for their natural death. That is the only restriction. You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for their death or you kill them at once--the number of cows is the same. So we simply ask you, "Don't kill them. Wait for their natural death and then take the meat." What is the difficulty? And we simply ask you, "As long as they're alive, let us take the cow's milk and prepare delicious foods for the whole human society."

Yogesvara dasa: If people don't kill the cows they will have even more meat, because that way the cows will have more time to reproduce more cows. If they don't kill the cows right away, there will be even more cows.

Srila Prabhupada: More cows, yes. They'll have more cows. We simply request, "Don't kill. Don't maintain slaughterhouses." That is very sinful. It brings down very severe karmic reactions upon society. Stop these slaughterhouses. We don't say, "Stop eating meat." You can eat meat, but don't take it from the slaughterhouse, by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the carcasses.

After all, how long will the cows live? Their maximum age is twenty years, and there are many cows who live only eighteen, sixteen, or ten years. So wait that much time; then regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the difficulty?

For the first few years you may not get quite as much as now. During that time you can eat some dogs and cats. [Laughter.] Yes. In Korea they eat dogs. What is the difference between here and Korea? You can also eat dogs for the time being. Or hogs. Eat hogs. We don't prohibit the killing of these less important animals. We neither sanction nor prohibit. But especially we request cow protection, because it is ordered by Lord Krsna. Go-raksya: "Protect the cows." That is our duty.

And economically, also, it is very useful. Krsna has not recommended this for nothing; it is not like that. Krsna's order has meaning. The cows on our Hare Krsna farms are giving more milk than other cows--because they are confident, "We will not be killed here." It is not like these rascals, these so-called Christians, say: "They have no soul; they have no intelligence." They have intelligence. In other places they do not give so much milk. But on our farms they are very jolly. As soon as the devotees call, they'll come. Yes--just like friends. And they are confident, "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they are giving much milk. Yes.

In Europe and America the cows are very good, but the cow-killing system is also very good. So you stop this. You simply request them, "You'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as she is dead, we shall supply you free of charge. You haven't got to pay so much money. You can get the flesh free and eat it then. Why are you killing? Stop these slaughterhouses." What is wrong with this proposal?

We don't want to stop trade or the production of grains and vegetables and fruit. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. That is why all over the world they have so many wars. Every ten or fifteen years there is a big war--a wholesale slaughterhouse for humankind. But these rascals--they do not see it, that by the law of karma, every action must have its reaction.

You are killing innocent cows and other animals--nature will take revenge. Just wait. As soon as the time is right, nature will gather all these rascals and slaughter them. Finished. They'll fight amongst themselves--Protestants and Catholics, Russia and America, this one and that one. It is going on. Why? That is nature's law. Tit for tat. "You have killed. Now you kill yourselves."

They are sending animals to the slaughterhouse, and now they'll create their own slaughterhouse. [Imitating gunfire:] Tung! Tung! Kill! Kill! You see? Just take Belfast, for example. The Roman Catholics are killing the Protestants, and the Protestants are killing the Catholics. This is nature's law. It's not necessary that you be sent to the ordinary slaughterhouse. You'll make a slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child--abortion. This is nature's law. Who are these children being killed? They are these meat-eaters. They enjoyed themselves when so many animals were killed, and now they're being killed by their mothers. People do not know how nature is working. If you kill, you must be killed. If you kill the cow, who is your mother, then in some future lifetime your mother will kill you. Yes. The mother becomes the child, and the child becomes the mother.Mam sa khadatiti mamsah. The Sanskrit word is mamsa. Mam means "me," and sa means "he." I am killing this animal; I am eating him. And in my next lifetime he'll kill me and eat me. When the animal is sacrificed, this mantra is recited into the ear of the animal--"You are giving your life, so in your next life you will get the opportunity of becoming a human being. And I who am now killing you will become an animal, and you will kill me." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill an animal?

Bhagavan dasa Gosvami: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects--

Srila Prabhupada: How will they understand? All dull-headed fools and rascals, dressed like gentlemen. That's all. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. A rascal, a fool, is prestigious as long as he does not speak. As soon as he speaks, his nature will be revealed--what he really is. Therefore that priest who came did not stay long. He did not want to expose himself.

Bhagavan dasa Gosvami: Less intelligent.

Srila Prabhupada: Now, we must take to agricultural work--produce food and give protection to the cows. And if we produce a surplus, we can trade. It is a simple thing that we must do. Our people should live peacefully in farming villages, produce grain and fruit and vegetables, protect the cows, and work hard. And if there is a surplus, we can start restaurants. Krsna conscious people will never be losers by following the instructions of Krsna. They will live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktva deham punar janma naiti (Bhagavad-gita 4.9): After leaving this body they will go directly to God. This is our way of life.

So open restaurants in any part of any city and make nice kacauris, srikhanda, puris, halava, and so many other delicacies. And people will purchase them. They will come and sit down. I have given the format: "Every preparation is ready--you can sit down. This is our standard charge for a meal. Now, as much as you like you take. You can take one helping or two, three, four--as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste." Suppose one man eats a single savory and another man eats four savories. That does not mean we shall charge more. Same charge. Same charge. "You can sit down, eat to your heart's content, and be satisfied." Let everyone be satisfied. "We will supply. Simply don't waste." This is our program. Not that each time--just as the hotel does--each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. No. "You can sit down and eat to your satisfaction. The charge stays the same."

Bhagavan dasa Gosvami: I think people will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of savories. [Laughter.]

Srila Prabhupada: That we shall not allow.

Bhagavan dasa Gosvami: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard and you're hungry you can come in and eat, but you cannot take any away with you.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If you have a garden and somebody says, "I want to eat some fruit," you'll say, "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But he should not gather up more than he can eat and take it away. Any number of men can come and eat to their satisfaction. The farmers do not even prohibit the monkeys--"All right, let them come in. After all, it is God's property." This is the Krsna conscious system: If an animal, say a monkey, comes to your garden to eat, don't prohibit him. He is also part and parcel of Krsna. If you prohibit him, where will he eat?

I have another story; this one was told by my father. My father's elder brother was running a cloth shop. Before closing the shop my uncle would put out a basin filled with rice. Of course, as in any village, there were rats. But the rats would take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. Cloth is very costly. If even one cloth had been cut by a rat, then it would have been a great loss. So with a few pennies' worth of rice, he saved many dollars' worth of cloth. This Krsna culture is practical. "They are also part and parcel of God. Give them food. They'll not create any disturbance. Give them food."

Everyone has an obligation to feed whoever is hungry--even if it is a tiger. Once a certain spiritual teacher was living in the jungle. His disciples knew, "The tigers will never come and disturb us, because our teacher keeps some milk a little distance from the asrama, and the tigers come and drink and go away."

The teacher would call, "You! Tiger! You can come and take your milk here!" [Laughter.] And they would come and take the milk and go away. And they would never attack any members of the asrama. The teacher would say, "They are my men--don't harm them."

I remember seeing at the World's Fair that a man had trained a lion. And the man was playing with that lion just like one plays with a dog. These animals can understand, "This man loves me. He gives me food; he is my friend." They also appreciate.

When Haridasa Thakura was living in a cave and chanting Hare Krsna, a big snake who also lived there decided to go away. The snake knew--"He's a saintly person. He should not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from Bhagavad-gita we understand, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese--Krsna is in every-one's heart, and He is dictating. So Krsna can dictate peace and harmony to the animals, to the serpent, to everyone. [Srila Prabhupada pauses reflectively.]

The Vedic culture offers so many nice, delicious foods, and mostly they are made with milk products. But these so-called civilized people--they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs, and they are proud of their civilization--like jackals and vultures. Actually, this Krsna consciousness movement will transform the uncivilized people and bring the whole world to real civilization.

 

A Formula for Peace

 

This article by Srila Prabhupada was first published in 1956 in New Delhi, India, in Back to Godhead, the magazine he founded in 1944. Appealing to to his Indian readers to "employ everything in transcendental service for the interest of the Lord," he concludes that "this alone can bring the desired peace."

 

In the revealed scriptures the Supreme Lord is described as sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. Sat means "eternal," cit means "fully cognizant," ananda means "joyful," and vigraha means "a specific personality." Therefore the Lord, or the Supreme Godhead, who is one without a second, is an eternal, joyful personality with a full sense of His own identity. That is a concise description of the Supreme Lord, and no one is equal to or greater than Him.

The living entities, or jivas, are minute samples of the Supreme Lord, and therefore we find in their activities the desire for eternal existence, the desire for knowledge of everything, and an urge for seeking happiness in diverse ways. These three qualities of the living being are minutely visible in human society, but they are increased and enjoyed one hundred times more by the beings who reside in the upper planets, which are called Bhurloka, Svarloka, Janaloka, Tapoloka, Maharloka, Brahmaloka, and so forth.

But even the standard of enjoyment on the highest planet in the material world, which is thousands and thousands of times superior to what we enjoy on this earth, is also described as insignificant in comparison to the spiritual bliss enjoyed in the company of the Supreme Lord. His loving service in different mellows (relationships) makes even the enjoyment of merging with the impersonal spiritual effulgence as insignificant as a drop of water compared with the ocean.

Every living being is ambitious to have the topmost level of enjoyment in the material world, and yet one is always unhappy here. This unhappiness is present on all the above-mentioned planets, in spite of a long life span and high standards of comfort.

That is the law of material nature. One can increase the duration of life and standard of comfort to the highest capacity, and yet by the law of material nature one will be unhappy. The reason is that the quality of happiness suitable for our constitution is different from the happiness derived from material activities. The living entity is a minute particle of sac-cid-ananda-vigraha, and therefore he necessarily has a propensity for joyfulness that is spiritual in quality. But he is vainly trying to derive his spiritual joyfulness from the foreign atmosphere of the material nature.

A fish that is taken out of the water cannot be happy by any arrangement for happiness on the land--it must have an aquatic habitation. In the same way, the minute sac-cid-ananda living entity cannot be really happy through any amount of material planning conceived by his illusioned brain. Therefore, the living entity must be given a different type of happiness, a transcendental happiness, which is called spiritual bliss. Our ambitions should be aimed at enjoying spiritual bliss and not material happiness.

The ambition for spiritual bliss is good, but the method of attaining this standard is not merely to negate material happiness. Theoretical negation of material activities, as propounded by Sripada Sankaracarya, may be relevant for an insignificant section of men, but the devotional activities propounded by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are the best and surest way of attaining spiritual bliss. In fact, they change the very face of material nature.

Hankering after material happiness is called lust, and in the long run lustful activities are sure to meet with frustration. The body of a venomous snake is very cool. But if a man wants to enjoy the coolness of the snake's body and therefore garlands himself with the snake, then surely he will be killed by the snake's bite. The material senses are like snakes, and indulging in so-called material happiness surely kills one's spiritual self-awareness. Therefore a sane man should be ambitious to find the real source of happiness.

Once, a foolish man who had no experience of the taste of sugarcane was told by a friend to taste its sweetness. When the man inquired about sugarcane's appearance, the friend imperfectly informed him that sugarcane resembles a bamboo stick. The foolish man thus began trying to extract sugarcane juice from a bamboo stick, but naturally he was baffled in his attempt.

That is the position of the illusioned living being in his search for eternal happiness within the material world, which is not only full of miseries but also transient and flickering. In the Bhagavad-gita, the material world is described as full of miseries. The ambition for happiness is good, but the attempt to derive it from inert matter by so-called scientific arrangements is an illusion. Befooled persons cannot understand this. The Gita (16.13) describes how a person driven by the lust for material happiness thinks, "So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future."

The atheistic, or godless, civilization is a huge affair of sense gratification, and everyone is now mad after money to keep up an empty show. Everyone is seeking money because that is the medium of exchange for sense-gratificatory objects. To expect peace in such an atmosphere of gold-rush pandemonium is a utopian dream. As long as there is even a slight tinge of madness for sense gratification, peace will remain far, far away. The reason is that by nature everyone is an eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord, and therefore we cannot enjoy anything for our personal interest. We have to employ everything in transcendental service for the interest of the Lord. This alone can bring about the desired peace. A part of the body cannot make itself satisfied; it can only serve the whole body and derive satisfaction from that service. But now everyone is busy in self-interested business, and no one is prepared to serve the Lord. That is the basic cause of material existence.

From the highest executive administrator down to the lowest sweeper in the street, everyone is working with the thought of unlawful accumulation of wealth. But to work merely for one's self-interest is unlawful and destructive. Even the cultivation of spiritual realization merely for one's self-interest is unlawful and destructive.

As a result of all the unlawful money-making, there is no scarcity of money in the world. But there is a scarcity of peace. Since the whole of our human energy has been diverted to this money-making, the money-making capacity of the total population has certainly increased. But the result is that such an un-restricted and unlawful inflation of money has created a bad economy and has enabled us to manufacture huge, costly weapons that threaten to destroy the very result of such money-making.

Instead of enjoying peace, the leaders of big money-making countries are now making big plans how they can save themselves from the modern destructive weapons, and yet a huge sum of money is being thrown into the sea for experiments with such dreadful weapons. Such experiments are being carried out not only at huge monetary costs, but also at the cost of many poor lives, thereby binding such nations to the laws of karma. That is the illusion of material nature. As a result of the impulse for sense gratification, money is earned by spoiled energy, and it is then spent for the destruction of the human race. The energy of the human race is thus spoiled by the law of nature because that energy is diverted from the service of the Lord, who is actually the owner of all energies.

Wealth derives from mother Laksmi, or the goddess of fortune. As the Vedic literatures explain, the goddess of fortune is meant to serve Lord Narayana, the source of all the naras, or living beings. The naras are also meant to serve Narayana, the Supreme Lord, under the guidance of the goddess of fortune. The living being cannot enjoy the goddess of fortune without serving Narayana, or Krsna, and therefore whoever desires to enjoy her wrongly will be punished by the laws of nature, and the money itself will become the cause of destruction instead of being the cause of peace and prosperity.

Such unlawfully accumulated money is now being snatched away from the miserly citizens by various methods of state taxation for the various national and international war funds, which spend the money in a wasteful manner. The citizen is no longer satisfied with just enough money to maintain his family nicely and cultivate spiritual knowledge, both of which are essential in human life. He now wants money unlimitedly for satisfying insatiable desires, and in proportion to his unlawful desires his accumulated money is now being taken away by the agents of the illusory nature in the shape of medical practitioners, lawyers, tax collectors, societies, institutions, and so-called religionists, as well as by famines, earthquakes, and many other such calamities.

One miser who, under the dictation of the illusory nature, hesitated to purchase a copy of Back to Godhead spent twenty-five hundred dollars for a week's supply of medicine and then died. A similar thing happened when a man who refused to spend a cent for the service of the Lord wasted thirty-five hundred dollars in a legal suit between the members of his household. That is the law of nature. If money is not devoted to the service of the Lord, by the law of nature it must be spent as spoiled energy in the fight against legal problems, diseases, and so on. Foolish people have no eyes to see such facts, so necessarily the laws of the Supreme Lord befool them.

The laws of nature do not allow us to accept more money than is required for proper maintenance. There is ample arrangement by the law of nature to provide every living being with his due share of food and shelter, but the insatiable lust of the human being has disturbed the whole arrangement of the almighty father of all species of life.

By the arrangement of the Supreme Lord, there is an ocean of salt, because salt is necessary for the living being. In the same manner, God has arranged for sufficient air and light, which are also essential for the living being. One can collect any amount of salt from the storehouse, but one cannot take more salt than he needs. If he takes more salt he spoils the broth, and if he takes less salt his eatables become tasteless. On the other hand, if he takes only what he absolutely requires, the food is tasty, and he is healthy. So ambition for wealth, for more than we need, is harmful, just as eating more salt than we absolutely need is harmful. That is the law of nature.

 

Perspectives on Science and Philosophy

 

Plato: Goodness and Government

 

In 1972 and 1973, Srila Prabhupada held a series of philosophical discussions with his personal secretary, Syamasundara, while traveling around the world. These sessions were recorded and published to provide an understanding of Western philosophy, psychology, and science from the viewpoint of the timeless teachings of India's Vedic literature. In the following conversation, the striking similarities between Plato's ideal state and that outlined in the Bhagavad-gita prompt one to ask, "Could Plato have gotten his ideas from India's ancient Vedas?"

 

Syamasundara: Plato believed society can enjoy prosperity and harmony only if it places people in working categories or classes according to their natural abilities. He thought people should find out their natural abilities and use those abilities to their fullest capacity--as administrators, as military men, or as craftsmen. Most important, the head of state should not be an average or mediocre man. Instead, society should be led by a very wise and good man--a "philosopher king"--or a group of very wise and good men.

Srila Prabhupada: This idea appears to be taken from the Bhagavad-gita, where Krsna says that the ideal society has four divisions: brahmanas [intellectuals], ksatriyas [warriors and administrators], vaisyas [merchants and farmers], and sudras [laborers]. These divisions come about by the influence of the modes of nature. Everyone, both in human society and in animal society, is influenced by the modes of material nature [sattva-guna, rajo-guna, and tamo-guna, or goodness, passion, and ignorance]. By scientifically classifying men according to these qualities, society can become perfect. But if we place a man in the mode of ignorance in a philosopher's post, or put a philosopher to work as an ordinary laborer, havoc will result.

In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that the brahmanas--the most intelligent men, who are interested in transcendental knowledge and philosophy--should be given the topmost posts, and under their instructions the ksatriyas [administrators] should work. The administrators should see that there is law and order and that everyone is doing his duty. The next section is the productive class, the vaisyas, who engage in agriculture and cow protection. And finally there are the sudras, common laborers who help the other sections. This is Vedic civilization--people living simply, on agriculture and cow protection. If you have enough milk, grains, fruits, and vegetables, you can live very nicely.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam compares the four divisions of society to the different parts of the body--the head, the arms, the belly, and the legs. Just as all parts of the body cooperate to keep the body fit, in the ideal state all sections of society cooperate under the leadership of the brahmanas. Comparatively, the head is the most important part of the body, for it gives directions to the other parts of the body. Similarly, the ideal state functions under the directions of the brahmanas, who are not personally interested in political affairs or administration because they have a higher duty. At present this Krsna consciousness movement is training brahmanas. If the administrators take our advice and conduct the state in a Krsna conscious way, there will be an ideal society throughout the world.

Syamasundara: How does modern society differ from the Vedic ideal?

Srila Prabhupada: Now there is large-scale industrialization, which means exploitation of one man by another. Such industry was unknown in Vedic civilization--it was unnecessary. In addition, modern civilization has taken to slaughtering and eating animals, which is barbarous. It is not even human.

In Vedic civilization, when a person was unfit to rule he was deposed. For instance, King Vena proved to be an unfit king. He was simply interested in hunting. Of course, ksatriyas are allowed to hunt, but not whimsically. They are not allowed to kill many birds and beasts unnecessarily, as King Vena was doing and as people do today. At that time the intelligent brahmanas objected and immediately killed him with a curse. Formerly, the brahmanas had so much power that they could kill simply by cursing; weapons were unnecessary.

At present, however--because the head of the social body is missing--it is a dead body. The head is very important, and our Krsna consciousness movement is attempting to create some brahmanas who will form the head of society. Then the administrators will be able to rule very nicely under the instructions of the philosophers and theologians--that is, under the instructions of God-conscious people. A God conscious brahmana would never advise opening slaughterhouses. But now, the many rascals heading the government allow animal slaughter. When Maharaja Pariksit saw a degraded man trying to kill a cow, he immediately drew his sword and said, "Who are you? Why are you trying to kill this cow?" He was a real king. Nowadays, unqualified men have taken the presidential post. And although they may pose themselves as very religious, they are simply rascals. Why? Because under their noses thousands of cows are being killed, while they collect a good salary. Any leader who is at all religious should resign his post in protest if cow slaughter goes on under his rule. Since people do not know that these administrators are rascals, they are suffering. And the people are also rascals because they are voting for these bigger rascals. It is Plato's view that the government should be ideal, and this is the ideal: The saintly philosophers should be at the head of the state; according to their advice the politicians should rule; under the protection of the politicians, the productive class should provide the necessities of life; and the laborer class should help. This is the scientific division of society that Krsna advocates in the Bhagavad-gita (4.13): catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me."

Syamasundara: Plato also observed social divisions. However, he advocated three divisions. One class consisted of the guardians, men of wisdom who governed society. Another class consisted of the warriors, who were courageous and who protected the rest of society. And the third class consisted of the artisans, who performed their services obediently and worked only to satisfy their appetites.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, human society does have this threefold division, also. The first-class man is in the mode of goodness, the second-class man is in the mode of passion, and the third-class man is in the mode of ignorance.

Syamasundara: Plato's understanding of the social order was based on his observation that man has a threefold division of intelligence, courage, and appetite. He said that the soul has these three qualities.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a mistake. The soul does not have any material qualities. The soul is pure, but because of his contact with the different qualities of material nature, he is "dressed" in various bodies. This Krsna consciousness movement aims at removing this material dress. Our first instruction is "You are not this body." It appears that in his practical understanding Plato identified the soul with the bodily dress, and that does not show very good intelligence.

Syamasundara: Plato believed that man's position is marginal--between matter and spirit--and therefore he also stressed the development of the body. He thought that everyone should be educated from an early age, and that part of that education should be gymnastics--to keep the body fit.

Srila Prabhupada: This means that in practice Plato very strongly identified the self as the body. What was Plato's idea of education?

Syamasundara: To awaken the student to his natural position--whatever his natural abilities or talents are.

Srila Prabhupada: And what is that natural position?

Syamasundara: The position of moral goodness. In other words, Plato thought everyone should be educated to work in whatever way is best suited to awaken his natural moral goodness.

Srila Prabhupada: But moral goodness is not enough, because simple morality will not satisfy the soul. One has to go above morality--to Krsna consciousness. Of course, in this material world morality is taken as the highest principle, but there is another platform, which is called the transcendental (vasudeva) platform. Man's highest perfection is on that platform, and this is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. However, because Western philosophers have no information of the vasudeva platform, they consider the material mode of goodness to be the highest perfection and the end of morality. But in this world even moral goodness is infected by the lower modes of ignorance and passion. You cannot find pure goodness (suddha-sattva) in this material world, for pure goodness is the transcendental platform. To come to the platform of pure goodness, which is the ideal, one has to undergo austerities (tapasa brahmacaryena samena ca damena ca). One has to practice celibacy and control the mind and senses. If he has money, he should distribute it in charity. Also, one should always be very clean. In this way one can rise to the platform of pure goodness.

There is another process for coming to the platform of pure goodness--and that is Krsna consciousness. If one becomes Krsna conscious, all the good qualities automatically develop in him. Automatically he leads a life of celibacy, controls his mind and senses, and has a charitable disposition. In this age of Kali, people cannot possibly be trained to engage in austerity. Formerly, a brahmacari [celibate student] would undergo austere training. Even though he might be from a royal or learned family, a brahmacari would humble himself and serve the spiritual master as a menial servant. He would immediately do whatever the spiritual master ordered. The brahmacari would beg alms from door to door and bring them to the spiritual master, claiming nothing for himself. Whatever he earned he would give to the spiritual master, because the spiritual master would not spoil the money by spending it for sense gratification--he would use it for Krsna. This is austerity. The brahmacari would also observe celibacy, and because he followed the directions of the spiritual master, his mind and senses were controlled.

Today, however, this austerity is very difficult to follow, so Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given the process of taking to Krsna consciousness directly. In this case, one need simply chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare and follow the regulative principles given by the spiritual master. Then one immediately rises to the platform of pure goodness.

Syamasundara: Plato thought the state should train citizens to be virtuous. His system of education went like this: For the first three years of life, the child should play and strengthen his body. From three to six, the child should learn religious stories. From seven to ten, he should learn gymnastics; from ten to thirteen, reading and writing; from fourteen to sixteen, poetry and music; from sixteen to eighteen, mathematics. And from eighteen to twenty, he should undergo military drill. From twenty to thirty-five, those who are scientific and philosophical should remain in school and continue learning, and the warriors should engage in military exercises.

Srila Prabhupada: Is this educational program for all men, or are there different types of education for different men?

Syamasundara: No, this is for everyone.

Srila Prabhupada: This is not very good. If a boy is intelligent and inclined to philosophy and theology, why should he be forced to undergo military training?

Syamasundara: Well, Plato said that everyone should undergo two years of military drill.

Srila Prabhupada: But why should someone waste two years? No one should waste even two days. This is nonsense--imperfect ideas.

Syamasundara: Plato said this type of education reveals what category a person belongs to. He did have the right idea that one belongs to a particular class according to his qualification.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that we also say, but we disagree that everyone should go through the same training. The spiritual master should judge the tendency or disposition of the student at the start of his education. He should be able to see whether a boy is fit for military training, administration, or philosophy, and then he should fully train the boy according to his particular tendency. If one is naturally inclined to philosophical study, why should he waste his time in the military? And if one is naturally inclined to military training, why should he waste his time with other things? Arjuna belonged to a ksatriya [warrior] family. He and his brothers were never trained as philosophers. Dronacarya was their master and teacher, and although he was a brahmana, he taught them Dhanur Veda [military science], not brahma-vidya. Brahma-vidya is theistic philosophy. No one should be trained in everything; that is a waste of time. If one is inclined toward production, business, or agriculture, he should be trained in those fields. If one is philosophical, he should be trained as a philosopher. If one is militaristic, he should be trained as a warrior. And if one has ordinary ability, he should remain a sudra, or laborer. This is stated by Narada Muni in Srimad-Bhagavatam: yasya yal-laksanam proktam. The four classes of society are recognized by their symptoms and qualifications. Narada Muni also says that one should be selected for training according to his qualifications. Even if one is born in a brahmana family, he should be considered a sudra if his qualifications are those of a sudra. And if one is born in a sudra family, he should be taken as a brahmana if his symptoms are brahminical. The spiritual master should be expert enough to recognize the tendencies of the student and immediately train him in that line. This is perfect education.

Syamasundara: Plato believed that the student's natural tendency wouldn't come out unless he practiced everything.

Srila Prabhupada: No, that is wrong--because the soul is continuous, and therefore everyone has some tendency from his previous birth. I think Plato didn't realize this continuity of the soul from body to body. According to the Vedic culture, immediately after a boy's birth astrologers should calculate what category he belongs to. Astrology can help if there is a first-class astrologer. Such an astrologer can tell what line a boy is coming from and how he should be trained. Plato's method of education was imperfect because it was based on speculation.

Syamasundara: Plato observed that a particular combination of the three modes of nature is acting in each individual.

Srila Prabhupada: Then why did he say that everyone should be trained in the same way?

Syamasundara: Because he claimed that the person's natural abilities will not manifest unless he is given a chance to try everything. He saw that some people listen primarily to their intelligence, and he said they are governed by the head. He saw that some people have an aggressive disposition, and he said such courageous types are governed by the heart--by passion. And he saw that some people, who are inferior, simply want to feed their appetites. He said these people are animalistic, and he believed they are governed by the liver.

Srila Prabhupada: That is not a perfect description. Everyone has a liver, a heart, and all the bodily limbs. Whether one is in the mode of goodness, passion, or ignorance depends on one's training and on the qualities he acquired during his previous life. According to the Vedic process, at birth one is immediately given a classification. Psychological and physical symptoms are considered, and generally it is ascertained from birth that a child has a particular tendency. However, this tendency may change according to circumstances, and if one does not fulfill his assigned role, he can be transferred to another class. One may have had brahminical training in a previous life, and he may exhibit brahminical symptoms in this life, but one should not think that because he has taken birth in a brahmana family he is automatically a brahmana. A person may be born in a brahmana family and be a sudra. It is a question not of birth but of qualification.

Syamasundara: Plato also believed that one must qualify for his post. His system of government was very democratic. He thought everyone should be given a chance to occupy the different posts.

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, we are the most democratic because we are giving everyone a chance to become a first-class brahmana. The Krsna consciousness movement is giving even the lowest member of society a chance to become a brahmana by becoming Krsna conscious. Candalo 'pi dvija-srestho hari-bhakti-parayanah: Although one may be born in a family of candalas [dog-eaters], as soon as he becomes God conscious, Krsna conscious, he can be elevated to the highest position. Krsna says that everyone can go back home, back to Godhead. Samo 'ham sarva-bhutesu: "I am equal to everyone. Everyone can come to Me. There is no hindrance."

Syamasundara: What is the purpose of the social orders and the state government?

Srila Prabhupada: The ultimate purpose is to make everyone Krsna conscious. That is the perfection of life, and the entire social structure should be molded with this aim in view. Of course, not everyone can become fully Krsna conscious in one lifetime, just as not all students in a university can attain the Ph.D. degree in one attempt. But the idea of perfection is to pass the Ph.D. examination, and therefore the Ph.D. courses should be maintained. Similarly, an institution like this Krsna consciousness movement should be maintained so that at least some people can attain and everyone can approach the ultimate goal--Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara: So the goal of the state government is to help everyone become Krsna conscious?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna consciousness is the highest goal. Therefore, everyone should help this movement and take advantage of it. Regardless of his work, everyone can come to the temple. The instructions are for everyone, and prasadam is distributed to everyone. Therefore, there is no difficulty. Everyone can contribute to this Krsna consciousness movement. The brahmanas can contribute their intelligence; the ksatriyas their charity; the vaisyas their grain, milk, fruits, and flowers; and the sudras their bodily service. By such joint effort, everyone can reach the same goal--Krsna consciousness, the perfection of life.

 

Shortcomings of Marxism

 

In the following dialogue, Srila Prabhupada focuses on Marx's frustrated attempt to eradicate greed from human nature and society at large. "A classless society is possible only when Krsna is in the center," says Srila Prabhupada. "The real change occurs when we say, 'Nothing belongs to me, everything belongs to God.'... So Krsna consciousness is the final revolution."

 

Syamasundara: Karl Marx contended that philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it. His philosophy is often called "dialectical materialism" because it comes from the dialectic of George Hegel--thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. When applied to society, his philosophy is known as communism. His idea is that for many generations, the bourgeoisie [the property owners] have competed with the proletariat [the working class], and that this conflict will terminate in the communist society. In other words, the workers will overthrow the capitalistic class and establish a so-called dictatorship of the proletariat, which will finally become a classless society.

Srila Prabhupada: But how is a classless society possible? Men naturally fall into different classes. Your nature is different from mine, so how can we artificially be brought to the same level?

Syamasundara: His idea is that human nature, or ideas, are molded by the means of production. Therefore everyone can be trained to participate in the classless society.

Srila Prabhupada: Then training is required?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: And what will be the center of training for this classless society? What will be the motto?

Syamasundara: The motto is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." The idea is that everyone would contribute something, and everyone would get what he needed.

Srila Prabhupada: But everyone's contribution is different. A scientific man contributes something, and a philosopher contributes something else. The cow contributes milk, and the dog contributes service as a watchdog. Even the trees, the birds, the beasts--everyone is contributing something. So, by nature a reciprocal arrangement is already there among social classes. How can there be a classless society?

Syamasundara: Well, Marx's idea is that the means of production will be owned in common. No one would have an advantage over anyone else, and thus one person could not exploit another. Marx is thinking in terms of profit.

Srila Prabhupada: First we must know what profit actually is. For example, the American hippies already had "profit." They were from the best homes, their fathers were rich--they had everything. Yet they were not satisfied; they rejected it. No, this idea of a classless society based on profit-sharing is imperfect. Besides, the communists have not created a classless society. We have seen in Moscow how a poor woman will wash the streets while her boss sits comfortably in his car. So where is the classless society? As long as society is maintained, there must be some higher and lower classification. But if the central point of society is one, then whether one works in a lower or a higher position, he doesn't care. For example, our body has different parts--the head, the legs, the hands--but everything works for the stomach.

Syamasundara: Actually, the Russians supposedly have the same idea: they claim the common worker is just as glorious as the top scientist or manager.

Srila Prabhupada: But in Moscow we have seen that not everyone is satisfied. One boy who came to us was very unhappy because in Russia young boys are not allowed to go out at night.

Syamasundara: The Russian authorities would say that he has an improper understanding of Marxist philosophy.

Srila Prabhupada: That "improper understanding" is inevitable. They will never be able to create a classless society because, as I have already explained, everyone's mentality is different.

Syamasundara: Marx says that if everyone is engaged according to his abilities in a certain type of production, and everyone works for the central interest, then everyone's ideas will become uniform.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore we must find out the real central interest. In our International Society for Krishna Consciousness, everyone has a central interest in Krsna. Therefore one person is speaking, another person is typing, another is going to the press or washing the dishes, and no one is grudging, because they are all convinced they are serving Krsna.

Syamasundara: Marx's idea is that the center is the state.

Srila Prabhupada: But the state cannot be perfect. If the Russian state is perfect, then why was Khrushchev driven from power? He was elected premier. Why was he driven from power?

Syamasundara: Because he was not fulfilling the aims of the people.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, then, what is the guarantee the next premier will do that? There is no guarantee. The same thing will happen again and again. Because the center, Khrushchev, was imperfect, people begrudged their labor. The same thing is going on in non-communist countries as well. The government is changed, the prime minister is deposed, the president is impeached. So what is the real difference between Russian communism and other political systems? What is happening in other countries is also happening in Russia, only they call it by a different name. When we talked with Professor Kotovsky of Moscow University, we told him he had to surrender: either he must surrender to Krsna or to Lenin, but he must surrender. He was taken aback at this.

Syamasundara: From studying history, Marx concluded that the characteristics of culture, the social structure, and even the thoughts of the people are determined by the means of economic production.

Srila Prabhupada: How does he account for all the social disruption in countries like America, which is so advanced in economic production?

Syamasundara: He says that capitalism is a decadent form of economic production because it relies on the exploitation of one class by another.

Srila Prabhupada: But there is exploitation in the communist countries also. Khrushchev was driven out of power because he was exploiting his position. He was giving big government posts to his son and son-in-law.

Syamasundara: He was deviating from the doctrine.

Srila Prabhupada: But since any leader can deviate, how will perfection come? First the person in the center must be perfect, then his dictations will be correct. Otherwise, if the leaders are all imperfect men, what is the use of changing this or that? The corruption will continue.

Syamasundara: Presumably the perfect leader would be the one who practiced Marx's philosophy without deviation.

Srila Prabhupada: But Marx's philosophy is also imperfect! His proposal for a classless society is unworkable. There must be one class of men to administer the government and one class of men to sweep the streets. How can there be a classless society? Why should a sweeper be satisfied seeing someone else in the administrative post? He will think, "He is forcing me to work as a sweeper in the street while he sits comfortably in a chair." In our Inter-national Society, I am also holding the superior post: I am sitting in a chair, and you are offering me garlands and the best food. Why? Because you see a perfect man whom you can follow. That mentality must be there. Everyone in the society must be able to say, "Yes, here is a perfect man. Let him sit in a chair, and let us all bow down and work like menials." Where is that perfect man in the communist countries?

Syamasundara: The Russians claim that Lenin is a perfect man.

Srila Prabhupada: Lenin? But no one is following Lenin. Lenin's only perfection was that he overthrew the czar's government. What other perfection has he shown? The people are not happy simply reading Lenin's books. I studied the people in Moscow. They are unhappy. The government cannot force them to be happy artificially. Unless there is a perfect, ideal man in the center, there cannot possibly be a classless society.

Syamasundara: Perhaps they see the workers and the managers in the same way that we do--in the absolute sense. Since everyone is serving the state, the sweeper is as good as the administrator.

Srila Prabhupada: But unless the state gives perfect satisfaction to the people, there will always be distinctions between higher and lower classes. In the Russian state, that sense of perfection in the center is lacking.

Syamasundara: Their goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being.

Srila Prabhupada: That is useless! Economic production in America has no comparison in the world, yet still people are dissatisfied. The young men are confused. It is nonsensical to think that simply by increasing production everyone will become satisfied. No one will be satisfied. Man is not meant simply for eating. He has mental necessities, intellectual necessities, spiritual necessities. In India many people sit alone silently in the jungle and practice yoga. They do not require anything. How will increased production satisfy them? If someone were to say to them, "If you give up this yoga practice, I will give you two hundred bags of rice," they would laugh at the proposal. It is animalistic to think that simply by increasing production everyone will become satisfied. Real happiness does not depend on either production or starvation, but upon peace of mind. For example, if a child is crying but the mother does not know why, the child will not stop simply by giving him some milk. Sometimes this actually happens: the mother cannot understand why her child is crying, and though she is giving him her breast, he continues to cry. Similarly, dissatisfaction in human society is not caused solely by low economic production. That is nonsense. There are many causes of dissatisfaction. The practical example is America, where there is sufficient production of everything, yet the young men are becoming hippies. They are dissatisfied, confused. No, simply by increasing economic production people will not become satisfied. Marx's knowledge is insufficient. Perhaps because he came from a country where people were starving, he had that idea.

Syamasundara: Yes, now we've seen that production of material goods alone will not make people happy.

Srila Prabhupada: Because they do not know that real happiness comes from spiritual understanding. That understanding is given in the Bhagavad-gita: God is the supreme enjoyer, and He is the proprietor of everything. We are not actually enjoyers; we are all workers. These two things must be there: an enjoyer and a worker. For example, in our body the stomach is the enjoyer and all other parts of the body are workers. So this system is natural: there must always be someone who is the enjoyer and someone who is the worker. It is present in the capitalist system also. In Russia there is always conflict between the managers and the workers. The workers say, "If this is a classless society, why is that man sitting comfortably and ordering us to work?" The Russians have not been able to avoid this dilemma, and it cannot be avoided. There must be one class of men who are the directors or enjoyers and another class of men who are the workers. Therefore the only way to have a truly classless society is to find that method by which both the managers and the workers will feel equal happiness. For example, if the stomach is hungry and the eyes see some food, immediately the brain will say, "O legs, please go there!" and "Hand, pick it up," and "Now please put it into the mouth." Immediately the food goes into the stomach, and as soon as the stomach is satisfied, the eyes are satisfied, the legs are satisfied, and the hand is satisfied.

Syamasundara: But Marx would use this as a perfect example of communism.

Srila Prabhupada: But he has neglected to find out the real stomach.

Syamasundara: His is the material stomach.

Srila Prabhupada: But the material stomach is always hungry again; it can never be satisfied. In the Krsna consciousness movement we have the substance for feeding our brains, our minds, and our souls. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. If the spiritual master is satisfied, then Krsna is satisfied, and if Krsna is satisfied, then everyone is satisfied. Therefore you are all trying to satisfy your spiritual master. Similarly, if the communist countries can come up with a dictator who, if satisfied, automatically gives satisfaction to all the people, then we will accept such a classless society. But this is impossible. A classless society is only possible when Krsna is in the center. For the satisfaction of Krsna, the intellectual can work in his own way, the administrator can work in his way, the merchant can work in his way, and the laborer can work in his way. This is truly a classless society.

Syamasundara: How is this different from the communist country, where all sorts of men contribute for the same central purpose, which is the state?

Srila Prabhupada: The difference is that if the state is not perfect, no one will willingly contribute to it. They may be forced to contribute, but they will not voluntarily contribute unless there is a perfect state in the center. For example, the hands, legs, and brain are working in perfect harmony for the satisfaction of the stomach. Why? Because they know without a doubt that by satisfying the stomach they will all share the energy and also be satisfied. Therefore, unless the people have this kind of perfect faith in the leader of the country, there is no possibility of a classless society.

Syamasundara: The communists theorize that if the worker contributes to the central fund, he will get satisfaction in return.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but if he sees imperfection in the center, he will not work enthusiastically because he will have no faith that he will get full satisfaction. That perfection of the state will never be there, and therefore the workers will always remain dissatisfied.

Syamasundara: The propagandists play upon this dissatisfaction and tell the people that foreigners are causing it.

Srila Prabhupada: But if the people were truly satisfied, they could not be influenced by outsiders. If you are satisfied that your spiritual master is perfect--that he is guiding you nicely--will you be influenced by outsiders?

Syamasundara: No.

Srila Prabhupada: Because the communist state will never be perfect, there is no possibility of a classless society.

Syamasundara: Marx examines history and sees that in Greek times, in Roman times, and in the Middle Ages slaves were always required for production.

Srila Prabhupada: The Russians are also creating slaves--the working class. Joseph Stalin stayed in power simply by killing all his enemies. He killed so many men that he is recorded in history as the greatest criminal. He was certainly imperfect, yet he held the position of dictator, and the people were forced to obey him.

Syamasundara: His followers have denounced him.

Srila Prabhupada: That's all well and good, but his followers should also be denounced. The point is that in any society there must be a leader, there must be directors, and there must be workers, but everyone should be so satisfied that they forget the difference.

Syamasundara: No envy.

Srila Prabhupada: Ah, no envy. But that perfection is not possible in the material world. Therefore Marx's theories are useless.

Syamasundara: But on the other hand, the capitalists also make slaves of their workers.

Srila Prabhupada: Wherever there is materialistic activity, there must be imperfection. But if they make Krsna the center, then all problems will be resolved.

Syamasundara: Are you saying that any system of organizing the means of production is bound to be full of exploitation?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, certainly, certainly! The materialistic mentality means exploitation.

Syamasundara: Then what is the solution?

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness!

Syamasundara: How is that?

Srila Prabhupada: Just make Krsna the center and work for Him. Then everyone will be satisfied. As it is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.31.14):

 

yatha taror mula-nisecanena

trpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopasakhah

pranopaharac ca yathendriyanam

tathaiva sarvarhanam acyutejya

 

If you simply pour water on the root of a tree, all the branches, twigs, leaves, and flowers will be nourished. Similarly, everyone can be satisfied simply by acyutejya. Acyuta means Krsna, and ijya means worship. So this is the formula for a classless society: Make Krsna [God] the center and do everything for Him. There are no classes in our International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Now you are writing philosophy, but if I want you to wash dishes, you will do so immediately because you know that whatever you do, you are working for Krsna and for your spiritual master. In the material world different kinds of work have different values, but in Krsna consciousness everything is done on the absolute platform. Whether you wash dishes or write books or worship the Deity, the value is the same because you are serving Krsna. That is a classless society. Actually, the perfect classless society is Vrndavana. In Vrndavana, some are cowherd boys, some are cows, some are trees, some are fathers, some are mothers, but the center is Krsna, and everyone is satisfied simply by loving Him. When all people become Krsna conscious and understand how to love Him, then there will be a classless society. Otherwise it is not possible.

Syamasundara: Marx's definition of communism is "The common or public ownership of the means of production, and the abolition of private property." In our International Society for Krishna Consciousness, don't we have the same idea? We also say, "Nothing is mine." We have also abolished private property.

Srila Prabhupada: While the communist says, "Nothing is mine," he thinks everything belongs to the state. The state, however, is simply an extended "mine." For example, if I am the head of a family, I might say, "I do not want anything for myself, but I want many things for my children." Mahatma Gandhi, who sacrificed so much to drive the English out of India, was at the same time thinking, "I am a very good man; I am doing national work." Therefore, this so-called nationalism or so-called communism is simply extended selfishness. The quality remains the same. The real change occurs when we say, "Nothing belongs to me; everything belongs to God, Krsna, and therefore I should use everything in His service." That is factual.

Syamasundara: Marx says that the capitalists are parasites living at the cost of the workers.

Srila Prabhupada: But the communists are also living at the cost of the workers: the managers are drawing big salaries, and the common workers are dissatisfied. Indeed, their godless society is becoming more and more troublesome. Unless everyone accepts God as the only enjoyer and himself simply as His servant, there will always be conflict. In the broad sense, there is no difference between the communists and the capitalists because God is not accepted as the supreme enjoyer and proprietor in either system. Actually, no property belongs to either the communists or the capitalists. Everything belongs to God.

Syamasundara: Marx condemns the capitalists for making a profit. He says that profit-making is exploitation and that the capitalists are unnecessary for the production of commodities.

Srila Prabhupada: Profit-making may be wrong, but that exploitative tendency is always there, whether it is a communist or a capitalist system. In Bengal it is said that during the winter season the bugs cannot come out because of the severe cold. So they become dried up, being unable to suck any blood. But as soon as the summer season comes, the bugs get the opportunity to come out, so they immediately bite someone and suck his blood to their full satisfaction. Our mentality in this material world is the same: to exploit others and become wealthy. Whether you are a communist in the winter season or a capitalist in the summer season, your tendency is to exploit others. Unless there is a change of heart, this exploitation will go on.

I once knew a mill worker who acquired some money. Then he became the proprietor of the mill and took advantage of his good fortune to become a capitalist. Henry Ford is another example. He was an errand boy, but he got the opportunity to become a capitalist. There are many such instances. So, to a greater or lesser degree, the propensity is always there in human nature to exploit others and become wealthy. Unless this mentality is changed, there is no point in changing from a capitalist to a communist society. Material life means that everyone is seeking some profit, some adoration, and some position. By threats the state can force people to curb this tendency, but for how long? Can they change everyone's mind by force? No, it is impossible. Therefore, Marx's proposition is nonsense.

Syamasundara: Marx thinks the minds of people can be changed by forced conditioning.

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. Even a child cannot be convinced by force, what to speak of a mature, educated man. We have the real process for changing people's minds: chanting the Hare Krsna mantra. Ceto-darpana-marjanam: This process cleanses the heart of material desires. We have seen that people in Moscow are not happy. They are simply waiting for another revolution. We talked to one working-class boy who was very unhappy. When a pot of rice is boiling, you can take one grain and press it between your fingers, and if it is hot you can understand all the rice is boiling. Thus we can understand the position of the Russian people from the sample of that boy. We could also get further ideas by talking with Professor Kotovsky from the India Department of Moscow University. How foolish he was! He said that after death everything is finished. If this is his knowledge, and if that young boy is a sample of the citizenry, then the situation in Russia is very bleak. They may theorize about so many things, but we could not even purchase sufficient groceries in Moscow. There were no vegetables, fruits, or rice, and the milk was of poor quality. If that Madrasi gentleman had not contributed some dahl and rice, then practically speaking we would have starved. The Russians' diet seemed to consist of only meat and liquor.

Syamasundara: The communists play upon this universal profit motive. The worker who produces the most units at his factory is glorified by the state or receives a small bonus.

Srila Prabhupada: Why should he get a bonus?

Syamasundara: To give him some incentive to work hard.

Srila Prabhupada: Just to satisfy his tendency to lord it over others and make a profit, his superiors bribe him. This Russian communist idea is very good, provided the citizens do not want any profit. But that is impossible, because everyone wants profit. The state cannot destroy this tendency either by law or by force.

Syamasundara: The communists try to centralize everything--money, communications, and transport--in the hands of the state.

Srila Prabhupada: But what benefit will there be in that? As soon as all the wealth is centralized, the members of the central government will appropriate it, just as Khrushchev did. These are all useless ideas as long as the tendency for exploitation is not reformed. The Russians have organized their country according to Marx's theories, yet all their leaders have turned out to be cheaters. Where is their program for reforming this cheating propensity?

Syamasundara: Their program is to first change the social condition, and then, they believe, the corrupt mentality will change automatically.

Srila Prabhupada: Impossible. Such repression will simply cause a reaction in the form of another revolution.

Syamasundara: Are you implying that the people's mentality must first be changed, and then a change in the social structure will naturally follow?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. But the leaders will never be able to train all the people to think that everything belongs to the state. This idea is simply utopian nonsense.

Syamasundara: Marx has another slogan: "Human nature has no reality." He says that man's nature changes through history according to material conditions.

Srila Prabhupada: He does not know the real human nature. It is certainly true that everything in this cosmic creation, or jagat, is changing. Your body changes daily. Everything is changing, just like waves in the ocean. This is not a very advanced philosophy. Marx's theory is also being changed; it cannot last. But man does have a fundamental nature that never changes: his spiritual nature. We are teaching people to come to the standard of acting according to their spiritual nature, which will never change. Acting spiritually means serving Krsna. If we try to serve Krsna now, we will continue to serve Krsna when we go to Vaikuntha, the spiritual world. Therefore, loving service to Lord Krsna is called nitya, or eternal. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, nitya-yukta upasate: "My pure devotees perpetually worship Me with devotion."

The communists give up Krsna and replace Him with the state. Then they expect to get the people to think, "Nothing in my favor; everything in favor of the state." But people will never accept this idea. It is impossible; let the rascals try it! All they can do is simply force the people to work, as Stalin did. As soon as he found someone opposed to him, he immediately cut his throat. The same disease is still there today, so how will their program be successful?

Syamasundara: Their idea is that human nature has no reality of its own. It is simply a product of the material environment. Thus, by putting a man in the factory and making him identify with the state and something like scientific achievement, they think they can transform him into a selfless person.

Srila Prabhupada: But because he has the basic disease, envy, he will remain selfish. When he sees that he is working so hard but that the profit is not coming to him, his enthusiasm will immediately slacken. In Bengal there is a proverb: "As a proprietor I can turn sand into gold, but as soon as I am no longer the proprietor, the gold becomes sand." The Russian people are in this position. They are not as rich as the Europeans or the Americans, and because of this they are unhappy.

Syamasundara: One of the methods the authorities in Russia use is to constantly whip the people into believing there may be a war at any moment. Then they think, "To protect our country, we must work hard."

Srila Prabhupada: If the people cannot make any profit on their work, however, they will eventually lose all interest in the country. The average man will think, "Whether I work or not, I get the same result. I cannot adequately feed and clothe my family." Then he will begin to lose his incentive to work. A scientist will see that despite his high position, his wife and children are dressed just like the common laborer.

Syamasundara: Marx says that industrial and scientific work is the highest kind of activity.

Srila Prabhupada: But unless the scientists and the industrialists receive sufficient profit, they will be reluctant to work for the state.

Syamasundara: The Russian goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being.

Srila Prabhupada: Their "human well-being" actually means, "If you don't agree with me, I'll cut your throat." This is their "well-being." Stalin had his idea of "human well-being," but anyone m who disagreed with his version of it was killed or imprisoned. They may say that a few must suffer for the sake of many, but we have personally seen that Russia has achieved neither general happiness nor prosperity. For example, in Moscow none of the big buildings have been recently built. They are old and ravaged, or poorly renovated. Also, at the stores the people had to stand in long lines to make purchases. These are indications that economic conditions are unsound.

Syamasundara: Marx considered religion an illusion that must be condemned.

Srila Prabhupada: The divisions between different religious faiths may be an illusion, but Marx's philosophy is also an illusion.

Syamasundara: Do you mean that it's not being practiced?

Srila Prabhupada: In the sixty years since the Russian Revolution, his philosophy has become distorted. On the other hand, Lord Brahma began the Vedic religion countless years ago, and though foreigners have been trying to devastate it for the last two thousand years, it is still intact. Vedic religion is not an illusion, at least not for India.

Syamasundara: Here is Marx's famous statement about religion. He says, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of the heartless world, just as it is the spirit of the spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

Srila Prabhupada: He does not know what religion is. His definition is false. The Vedas state that religion is the course of action given by God. God is a fact, and His law is also a fact. It is not an illusion. Krsna gives the definition of religion in Bhagavad-gita (18.66): sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. To surrender unto God--this is religion.

Syamasundara: Marx believes everything is produced from economic struggle and that religion is a technique invented by the bourgeoisie or the capitalists to dissuade the masses from revolution by promising them a better existence after death.

Srila Prabhupada: He himself has created a philosophy that is presently being enforced by coercion and killing.

Syamasundara: And he promised that in the future things will be better. So he is guilty of the very thing that he condemns religion for.

Srila Prabhupada: As we have often explained, religion is that part of our nature which is permanent, which we cannot give up. No one can give up his religion. And what is that religion? Service. Marx desires to serve humanity by putting forward his philosophy. Therefore that is his religion. Everyone is trying to render some service. The father is trying to serve his family, the statesman is trying to serve his country, and the philanthropist is trying to serve all humanity. Whether you are Karl Marx or Stalin or Mahatma Gandhi, a Hindu, a Muslim, or a Christian, you must serve. Because we are presently rendering service to so many people and so many things, we are becoming confused. Therefore, Krsna advises us to give up all this service and serve Him alone:

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

"Abandon all varieties of service and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear." (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

Syamasundara: The communists--and even to a certain extent the capitalists--believe that service for the production of goods is the only real service. Therefore they condemn us because we are not producing anything tangible.

Srila Prabhupada: How can they condemn us? We are giving service to humanity by teaching the highest knowledge. A high court judge does not produce any grains in the field. He sits in a chair and gets $25,000 or $30,000. Does that mean he is not rendering any service? Of course he is. The theory that unless one performs manual labor in the factory or the fields he is not doing service would simply give credit to the peasant and the worker. It is a peasant philosophy.

There is a story about a king and his prime minister. Once the king's salaried workers complained, "We are actually working, and this minister is doing nothing, yet you are paying him such a large salary. Why is that?" The king then called his minister in and also had someone bring in an elephant. "Please take this elephant and weigh it," the king said to his workers. The workers took the elephant to all the markets, but they could not find a scale large enough to weigh the animal. When they returned to the palace the king asked, "What happened?" One of the workers answered, "Sir, we could not find a scale large enough to weigh the elephant." Then the king addressed his prime minister, "Will you please weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir," said the prime minister, and he took the elephant away. He returned within a few minutes and said, "It weighs 11,650 pounds." All the workers were astonished. "How did you weigh the elephant so quickly?" one of them asked. "Did you find some very large scale?" The minister replied, "No. It is impossible to weigh an elephant on a scale. I went to the river, took the elephant on a boat, and noted the watermark. After taking the elephant off the boat, I put weights in the boat until the same watermark was reached. Then I had the elephant's weight." The king said to his workers, "Now do you see the difference?" One who has intelligence has strength, not the fools and the rascals. Marx and his followers are simply fools and rascals. We don't take advice from them; we take advice from Krsna or His representative.

Syamasundara: So religion is not simply a police force to keep people in illusion?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Religion means to serve the spirit. That is religion. Everyone is rendering service, but no one knows where his service will be most successful. Therefore Krsna says, "Serve Me, and you will serve the spiritual society." This is real religion. The Marxists want to build a so-called perfect society without religion, yet even up to this day, because India's foundation is religion, people all over the world adore India.

Syamasundara: Marx says that God does not create man; rather, man creates God.

Srila Prabhupada: That is more nonsense. From what he says, I can tell he is a nonsensical rascal and a fool. One cannot understand that someone is a fool unless he talks. A fool may dress very nicely and sit like a gentleman amongst gentlemen, but we can tell the fools from the learned men by their speech.

Syamasundara: Marx's follower was Nikolai Lenin. He reinforced all of Marx's ideas and added a few of his own. He believed that revolution is a fundamental fact of history. He said that history moves in leaps, and that it progresses toward the communist leap. He wanted Russia to leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, which he called the final stage of historical development.

Srila Prabhupada: No. We can say with confidence--and they may note it carefully--that after the Bolshevik Revolution there will be many other revolutions, because as long as people live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. Our proposition is to give up all these mental concoctions and come to the spiritual platform. If one comes to the spiritual platform, there will be no more revolution. As Dhruva Maharaja said, natah param parama vedmi na yatra nadah: "Now that I am seeing God, I am completely satisfied. Now all kinds of theorizing processes are finished." So God consciousness is the final revolution. There will be repeated revolutions in this material world unless people come to Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara: The Hare Krsna revolution.

Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic injunction is that people are searching after knowledge, and that when one understands the Absolute Truth, he understands everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. People are trying to approach an objective, but they do not know that the final objective is Krsna. They are simply trying to make adjustments with so many materialistic revolutions. They have no knowledge that they are spiritual beings and that unless they go back to the spiritual world and associate with the Supreme Spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. We are like fish out of water. Just as a fish cannot be happy unless he is in the water, we cannot be happy apart from the spiritual world. We are part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, Krsna, but we have left His association and fallen from the spiritual world because of our desire to enjoy this material world. So unless we reawaken the understanding of our spiritual position and go back home to the spiritual world, we can never be happy. We can go on theorizing for many lifetimes, but we will only see one revolution after another. The old order changes, yielding its place to the new. Or in other words, history repeats itself.

Syamasundara: Marx says that there are always two conflicting properties in material nature, and that the inner pulsation of opposite forces causes history to take leaps from one revolution to another. He claims that the communist revolution is the final revolution because it is the perfect resolution of all social and political contradictions.

Srila Prabhupada: If the communist idea is spiritualized, then it will become perfect. As long as the communist idea remains materialistic, it cannot be the final revolution. They believe that the state is the owner of everything. But the state is not the owner; the real owner is God. When they come to this conclusion, then the communist idea will be perfect. We also have a communistic philosophy. They say that everything must be done for the state, but in our International Society for Krishna Consciousness we are actually practicing perfect communism by doing everything for Krsna. We know Krsna is the supreme enjoyer of the result of all work (bhoktaram yajna-tapasam). The communist philosophy as it is now practiced is vague, but it can become perfect if they accept the conclusion of the Bhagavad-gita--that Krsna is the supreme proprietor, the supreme enjoyer, and the supreme friend of everyone. Then people will be happy. Now they mistrust the state, but if the people accept Krsna as their friend, they will have perfect confidence in Him, just as Arjuna was perfectly confident in Krsna on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. The great victory of Arjuna and his associates on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra showed that his confidence in Krsna was justified:

 

yatra yogesvarah krsno

yatra partho dhanur-dharah

tatra srir vijayo bhutir

dhruva nitir matir mama

 

"Wherever there is Krsna, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion." (Bhagavad-gita 18.78) So if Krsna is at the center of society, then the people will be perfectly secure and prosperous. The communist idea is welcome, provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state with God. That is religion.

 

Psychoanalysis and the Soul

 

Presenting a Vedic perspective on psychology, Srila Prabhupada discusses the subject with his disciple Syamasundara in the following conversation, recorded in Calcutta on October 5, 1971. Srila Prabhupada says, "By speculating on some shock that may or may not have occurred in childhood, one will never discover the root disease.... He [Freud] did not know the basic principle of spiritual understanding, which is that we are not this body.... We are different from this body, and we are transmigrating from one body to another."

 

Syamasundara: Sigmund Freud's idea was that many psychological problems originate with traumatic experiences in childhood or infancy. His method of cure was to have the patient try to recall these painful events and analyze them.

Srila Prabhupada: But he did not know that one must again become an infant. After this life, one will be put into another womb, and the same traumatic experiences will happen again. Therefore it is the duty of the spiritual master and the parents to save the child from taking another birth. The opportunity of this human form of life is that we can understand the horrible experiences of birth, death, old age, and disease and act so that we shall not be forced to go through the same things again. Otherwise, after death we shall have to take birth in a womb and suffer repeated miseries.

Syamasundara: Freud treated many people suffering from neuroses. For instance, suppose a man is sexually impotent. By recalling his childhood, he may remember some harmful experience with his father or mother that caused him to be repelled by women. In this way he can resolve the conflict and lead a normal sex life.

Srila Prabhupada: However, even in the so-called normal condition, the pleasure derived from sexual intercourse is simply frustrating and insignificant. For ordinary men attached to the materialistic way of life, their only pleasure is sexual intercourse. But the sastras [Vedic scriptures] say, yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham: the pleasure derived from sexual intercourse is tenth class at best. Because they have no idea of the pleasure of Krsna consciousness, the materialists regard sex as the highest pleasure. And how is it actually experienced? We have an itch, and when we scratch it, we feel some pleasure. But the aftereffects of sexual pleasure are abominable. The mother has to undergo labor pains, and the father has to take responsibility for raising the children nicely and giving them an education. Of course, if one is irresponsible like cats and dogs, that is another thing. But for those who are actually gentlemen, is it not painful to bear and raise children? Certainly. Therefore everyone is avoiding children by contraceptive methods. But much better is to follow the injunction of the sastras: Simply try to tolerate the itching sensation and avoid so much pain. This is real psychology. That itching sensation can be tolerated if one practices Krsna consciousness. Then one will not be very attracted by sex life.

Syamasundara: Freud's philosophy is that people have neuroses or disorders of their total personality--various conflicts and anxieties--and that all these originate with the sexual impulse.

Srila Prabhupada: That we admit. An embodied living being must have hunger, and he must have the sex impulse. We find that even in the animals these impulses are there.

Syamasundara: Freud believed that the ego tries to restrain these primitive drives, and that all anxieties arise from this conflict.

Srila Prabhupada: Our explanation is as follows: Materialistic life is no doubt very painful. As soon as one acquires a material body, he must always suffer three kinds of miseries: miseries caused by other living beings, miseries caused by the elements, and miseries caused by his own body and mind. So the whole problem is how to stop these miseries and attain permanent happiness. Unless one stops his materialistic way of life, with its threefold miseries and repeated birth and death, there is no question of happiness. The whole Vedic civilization is based on how one can cure this materialistic disease. If we can cure this disease, its symptoms will automatically vanish. Freud is simply dealing with the symptoms of the basic disease. When you have a disease, sometimes you have headaches, sometimes your leg aches, sometimes you have a pain in your stomach, and so on. But if your disease is cured, then all your symptoms disappear. That is our program.

Syamasundara: In his theory of psychoanalysis, Freud states that by remembering and reevaluating emotional shocks from our childhood, we can release the tension we are feeling now.

Srila Prabhupada: But what is the guarantee that one will not get shocked again? He may cure the results of one shock, but there is no guarantee that the patient will not receive another shock. Therefore Freud's treatment is useless. Our program is total cure--no more shocks of any kind. If one is situated in real Krsna consciousness, he can face the most severe type of adversity and remain completely undisturbed. In our Krsna consciousness movement, we are giving people this ability. Freud tries to cure the reactions of one kind of shock, but other shocks will come, one after another. This is how material nature works. If you solve one problem, another problem arises immediately. And if you solve that one, another one comes. As long as you are under the control of material nature, these repeated shocks will come. But if you become Krsna conscious, there are no more shocks.

Syamasundara: Freud's idea is that the basic instinct in the human personality is the sexual drive, or libido, and that if the expressions of a child's sexuality are inhibited, then his personality becomes disordered.

Srila Prabhupada: Everyone has the sex appetite: this tendency is innate. But our brahmacarya system restricts a child's sex life from the earliest stages of his development and diverts his attention to Krsna consciousness. As a result there is very little chance that he will suffer such personality disorders. In the Vedic age the leaders of society knew that if a person engaged in unrestricted sex indulgence, then the duration of his materialistic life would increase. He would have to accept a material body birth after birth. Therefore the sastras enjoin that one may have sexual intercourse only if married. Otherwise it is illicit. In our Krsna consciousness society, we prohibit illicit sex, but not legal sex. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.11) Krsna says, dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo 'smi bharatarsabha: "I am sexual intercourse that is not against religious principles." This means that sex must be regulated. Everyone has a tendency to have sex unrestrictedly--and in Western countries they are actually doing this--but according to the Vedic system, there must be restrictions. And not only must sex be restricted, but meat-eating, gambling, and drinking as well. So in our Society we have eliminated all these things, and our Western students are becoming pure devotees of Krsna. The people at large, however, must at least restrict these sinful activities, as explained in the Vedic sastras.

The Vedic system of varnasrama-dharma [four social orders and four spiritual orders] is so scientific that everything is automatically adjusted. Life becomes very peaceful, and everyone can make progress in Krsna consciousness. If the Vedic system is followed by human society, there will be no more of these mental disturbances.

Syamasundara: Freud says that sexual energy is not only expressed in sexual intercourse, but is associated with a wide variety of pleasurable bodily sensations such as pleasures of the mouth, like eating and sucking.

Srila Prabhupada: That is confirmed in the sastras: yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham. The only pleasure in this material world is sex. The word adi indicates that the basic principle is maithuna, sexual intercourse. The whole system of materialistic life revolves around this sexual pleasure. But this pleasure is like one drop of water in the desert. The desert requires an ocean of water. If you find one drop of water in a desert, you can certainly say, "Here is some water." But what is its value? Similarly, there is certainly some pleasure in sex life, but what is the value of that pleasure? Compared to the unlimited pleasure of Krsna consciousness, it is like one drop of water in the desert. Everyone is seeking unlimited pleasure, but no one is becoming satisfied. They are having sex in so many different ways, and the young girls walking on the street are almost naked. The whole society has become degraded. Now the female population has increased everywhere, and every woman and girl is trying to attract a man. The men take advantage of the situation. There is a saying in Bengal: "When milk is available in the marketplace, what is the use of keeping a cow?" So men are declining to keep a wife because sex is so cheap. They are deserting their families. And the more that men become attached to women, the more the female population of the world will increase.

Syamasundara: How does that result in more women?

Srila Prabhupada: When men have more sex, they lose the power to beget a male child. If the woman is sexually more powerful, a girl is born, and when the man is more powerful, a boy is born. This is Ayur-vedic science. For instance, in the Punjab State of India, there are fewer women because the men are very stout and strong. So when women are very easily available, the men become weak and beget female children. Sometimes they become impotent. If sex life is not restricted, there are so many disasters. And now we are actually seeing them: impotency, no marriage, increased female population. But no one knows why these things are happening or how human psychology can be controlled to avoid them. For this they must look to the perfect system of Vedic civilization.

Syamasundara: Freud says that as the child grows up, he begins to learn that by giving up immediate sensual satisfaction, he can gain a greater benefit later on.

Srila Prabhupada: But even this so-called greater benefit is illusory, because it is still based on the principle of material pleasure. The only way to entirely give up these lower pleasures is to take to Krsna consciousness. As Krsna states in the Bhagavad-gita (2.59), param drstva nivartate: "By experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness." And as Yamunacarya said, "Since I have been engaged in the transcendental loving service of Krsna, realizing ever-new pleasure in Him, whenever I think of sex pleasure I spit at the thought, and my lips curl in distaste." That is Krsna consciousness. Our prescription is that in the beginning of life the child should be taught self-restraint (brahmacarya) and when he is past twenty he can marry. In the beginning he should learn how to restrain his senses. If a child is taught to become saintly, his semen rises to his brain, and he is able to understand spiritual values. Wasting semen decreases intelligence. So from the beginning, if he is a brahmacari and does not misuse his semen, then he will become intelligent and strong and fully grown.

For want of this education, everyone's brain and bodily growth are being stunted. After the boy has been trained as a brahmacari, if he still wants to enjoy sex he may get married. But because he then has full strength of body and brain, he will immediately beget a male child. And because he has been trained from childhood to renounce materialistic enjoyment, when he is fifty years old he can retire from household life. At that time naturally his firstborn child will be twenty-five years old, and he can take responsibility for maintaining the household. Household life is simply a license for sex life--that's all. Sex is not required, but one who cannot restrain himself is given a license to get married and have sex. This is the real program that will save society. By speculating on some shock that may or may not have occurred in childhood, one will never discover the root disease. The sex impulse, as well as the impulse to become intoxicated and to eat meat, is present from the very beginning of life. Therefore one must restrain himself. Otherwise he will be implicated.Syamasundara: So the Western system of bringing up children seems artificial because the parents either repress the child too severely or don't restrict him at all.

Srila Prabhupada: That is not good. The Vedic system is to give the child direction for becoming Krsna conscious. There must be some repression, but our use of repression is different. We say the child must rise early in the morning, worship the Deity in the temple, and chant Hare Krsna. In the beginning, force may be necessary. Otherwise the child will not become habituated. But the idea is to divert his attention to Krsna conscious activities. Then, when he realizes he is not his body, all difficulties will disappear. As one increases his Krsna consciousness, he becomes neglectful of all these material things. So Krsna consciousness is the prime remedy--the panacea for all diseases.

Syamasundara: Freud divided the personality into three departments: the ego, the superego, and the id. The id is the irrational instinct for enjoyment. The ego is one's image of his own body, and is the instinct for self-preservation. The superego represents the moral restrictions of parents and other authorities.

Srila Prabhupada: It is certainly true that everyone has some false egoism, or ahankara. For example, Freud thought he was Austrian. That is false ego, or identifying oneself with one's place of birth. We are giving everyone the information that this identification with a material body is ignorance. It is due to ignorance only that I think I am Indian, American, Hindu, or Muslim. This is egoism of the inferior quality. The superior egoism is, "I am Brahman. I am an eternal servant of Krsna." If a child is taught this superior egoism from the beginning, then automatically his false egoism is stopped.

Syamasundara: Freud says that the ego tries to preserve the individual by organizing and controlling the irrational demands of the id. In other words, if the id sees something, like food, it automatically demands to eat it, and the ego controls that desire in order to preserve the individual. The superego reinforces this control. So these three systems are always conflicting in the personality.

Srila Prabhupada: But the basic principle is false, since Freud has no conception of the soul existing beyond the body. He is considering the body only. Therefore he is a great fool. According to bhagavata philosophy, anyone in the bodily concept of life--anyone who identifies this body, composed of mucus, bile, and air, as his self--is no better than an ass.

Syamasundara: Then these interactions of the id, the ego, and the superego are all bodily interactions?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are all subtle bodily interactions. The mind is the first element of the subtle body. The gross senses are controlled by the mind, which in turn is controlled by the intelligence. And the intelligence is controlled by the ego. So if the ego is false, then everything is false. If I falsely identify with this body because of false ego, then anything based on this false idea is also false. This is called maya, or illusion. The whole of Vedic education aims at getting off this false platform and coming to the real platform of spiritual knowledge, called brahma-jnana. When one comes to the knowledge that he is spirit soul, he immediately becomes happy. All his troubles are due to the false ego, and as soon as the individual realizes his true ego, the blazing fire of material existence is immediately extinguished. These philosophers are simply describing the blazing fire, but we are trying to get him out of the burning prison house of the material world altogether. They may attempt to make him happy within the fire, but how can they be successful? He must be saved from the fire. Then he will be happy. That is the message of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and that is Lord Krsna's message in the Bhagavad-gita. Freud identifies the body with the soul. He does not know the basic principle of spiritual understanding, which is that we are not this body. We are different from this body and are transmigrating from one body to another. Without this knowledge, all his theories are based on a misunderstanding.

Not only Freud, but everyone in this material world is under illusion. In Bengal, a psychiatrist in the civil service was once called to give evidence in a case where the murderer was pleading insanity. The civil servant examined him to discover whether he actually was insane or whether he was simply under intense stress. In the courtroom he said, "I have tested many persons, and I have concluded that everyone is insane to some degree. In the present case, if the defendant is pleading insanity, then you may acquit him if you like, but as far as I know, everyone is more or less insane." And that is our conclusion as well. Anyone who identifies with his material body must be crazy, for his life is based on a misconception.

Syamasundara: Freud also investigated the problem of anxiety, which he said was produced when the impulses of the id threaten to overpower the rational ego and the moral superego.

Srila Prabhupada: Anxiety will continue as long as one is in the material condition. No one can be free from anxiety in conditioned life.

Syamasundara: Is it because our desires are always frustrated?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Your desires must be frustrated because you desire something that is not permanent. Suppose I wish to live forever, but since I have accepted a material body, there is no question of living forever. Therefore I am always anxious that death will come. I am afraid of death, when the body will be destroyed. This is the cause of all anxiety: acceptance of something impermanent as permanent.

Syamasundara: Freud says that anxiety develops when the superego represses the primitive desires of the id to protect the ego. Is such repression of basic instincts very healthy?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. For us repression means restraining oneself from doing something which, in the long run, is against one's welfare. For example, suppose you are suffering from diabetes and the doctor says, "Don't eat any sweet food." If you desire to eat sweets, you must repress that desire. Similarly, in our system of brahmacarya there is also repression. A brahmacari should not sit down with a young woman, or even see one. He may desire to see a young woman, but he must repress the desire. This is called tapasya, or voluntary repression.

Syamasundara: But aren't these desires given outlet in other ways? For instance, instead of looking at a beautiful woman, we look at the beautiful form of Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is our process: param drstva nivartate. If you have a better engagement, you can give up an inferior engagement. When you are captivated by seeing the beautiful form of Krsna, naturally you have no more desire to see the beautiful form of a young woman.

Syamasundara: What's the effect of childhood experiences on one's later development?

Srila Prabhupada: Children imitate whoever they associate with. You all know the movie Tarzan. He was brought up by monkeys, and he took on the habits of monkeys. If you keep children in good association, their psychological development will be very good--they will become like demigods. But if you keep them in bad association, they will turn out to be demons. Children are a blank slate. You can mold them as you like, and they are eager to learn.

Syamasundara: So a child's personality doesn't develop according to a fixed pattern?

Srila Prabhupada: No. You can mold them in any way, like soft dough. However you put them into the mold, they will come out--like bharats, capatis or kacauris [types of Indian pastries]. Therefore if you give children good association, they will develop nicely, and if you put them in bad association, they will develop poorly. They have no independent psychology.

Syamasundara: Actually, Freud had a rather pessimistic view of human nature: he believed that we are all beset with irrational and chaotic impulses that cannot be eliminated.

Srila Prabhupada: This is not only pessimism, but evidence of his poor fund of knowledge. He did not have perfect knowledge, nor was he trained by a perfect man. Therefore his theories are all nonsense.

Syamasundara: He concluded that it was impossible to be happy in this material world, but that one can alleviate some of the conflicts through psychoanalysis. He thought one can try to make the path as smooth as possible, but it will always be troublesome.

Srila Prabhupada: It is true that one cannot be happy in this material world. But if one becomes spiritually elevated--if his consciousness is changed to Krsna consciousness--then he will be happy.

 

Evolution in Fact and Fantasy

 

Los Angeles, June 1972: Srila Prabhupada asserts that Darwin's theory of evolution is inconclusive and illogical. But Darwin's is not the only theory of evolution. The Vedas explain that an evolutionary process governs the progress of the soul. "We accept evolution," Srila Prabhupada says, "but not that the forms of the species are changing. The bodies are all already there, but the soul is evolving by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another.... The defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the soul."

 

Devotee: Darwin tried to show how the origin of living species could be fully explained by the purely mechanical, unplanned action of natural forces. By the process he called "natural selection," all the higher, complex forms of life gradually evolved from more primitive and rudimentary ones. In a given animal population, for example, some individuals will have traits that make them adapt better to their environment; these more fit individuals will survive to pass on their favorable traits to their offspring. The unfit will gradually be weeded out naturally. Thus a cold climate will favor those who have, say, long hair or fatty tissue, and the species will then gradually evolve in that direction.

Srila Prabhupada: The question is that in the development of the body, is there any plan that a particular kind of body--with, as you say, long hair or fatty tissue--should exist under certain natural conditions? Who has made these arrangements? That is the question.

Devotee: No one. Modern evolutionists ultimately base their theory on the existence of chance variations.

Srila Prabhupada: That is nonsense. There is no such thing as chance. If they say "chance," then they are nonsense. Our question remains. Who has created the different circumstances for the existence of different kinds of animals?

Devotee: For example, a frog may lay thousands of eggs, but out of all of them only a few may survive to adulthood. Those who do are more fit than the others. If the environment did not favorably select the fittest, then too many frogs--

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, frogs and many other animals lay eggs by the hundreds. A snake gives birth to scores of snakes at a time, and if all were allowed to exist, there would be a great disturbance. Therefore, big snakes devour the small snakes. That is nature's law. But behind nature's law is a brain. That is our proposition. Nature's law is not blind, for behind it there is a brain, and that brain is God. We learn this from the Bhagavad-gita (9.10): mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. Whatever is taking place in material nature is being directed by the Supreme Lord, who maintains everything in order. So the snake lays eggs by the score, and if many were not killed, the world would be overwhelmed by snakes. Similarly, male tigers kill the cubs. The economic theory of Malthus states that whenever there is overpopulation, there must be an outbreak of war, epidemic, famine, or the like to curb it. These natural activities do not take place by chance but are planned. Anyone who says they are a matter of chance has insufficient knowledge.

Devotee: But Darwin has a huge amount of evidence--

Srila Prabhupada: Evidence? That is all right. We also have got evidence. Evidence must be there. But as soon as there is evidence, there should be no talk of "chance."

Devotee: For example, out of millions of frogs, one may happen to be better adapted to living in the water.

Srila Prabhupada: But that is not by chance! That is by plan! He doesn't know that. As soon as one says "chance," it means his knowledge is imperfect. A man says "chance" when he cannot explain. It is evasive. So the conclusion is that he is without perfect knowledge and therefore unfit for giving any knowledge. He is cheating, that's all.

Devotee: Well, Darwin sees a "plan" or "design" in a sense, but--

Srila Prabhupada: If he sees a plan or design, then whose design? As soon as you recognize a design, you must acknowledge a designer. If you see a plan, then you must accept a planner. That he does not know.

Devotee: But the "plan" is only the involuntary working of nature.

Srila Prabhupada: Nonsense. There is a plan. The sun rises daily according to exact calculation. It does not follow our calculation; rather, we calculate according to the sun. Experiencing that in such-and-such season the sun rises at such-and-such time, we learn that according to the season the sun rises exactly on the minute, the second. It is not by whimsy or chance but by minute plan.

Devotee: But can't you say it's just mechanical?

Srila Prabhupada: Then who made it mechanical? If something is mechanical, then there must be a mechanic, a brain, who made the machine. Here is something mechanical [Srila Prabhupada points to a Telex machine]: Who made it? This machine has not come out by itself. It is made of iron, and the iron did not mold itself into a machine; there is a brain who made the machine possible. So everything in nature has a plan or design, and behind that plan or design is a brain, a very big brain.

Devotee: Darwin tried to make the appearance and disappearance of living forms seem so natural and involuntary that God is removed from the picture. Evolutionary theory makes it appear as if combinations of material ingredients created life, and then various species evolved one from another naturally.

Srila Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Combination means God. God is combining. Combination does not take place automatically. Suppose I am cooking. There are many ingredients gathered for cooking, but they do not combine together by themselves. I am the cooker, and in cooking I combine together ghee, spices, rice, dal, and so on; and in this way, nice dishes are produced. Similarly, the combination of ingredients in nature requires God. Otherwise how does the moment arise in which the combination takes place? Do you place all the ingredients in the kitchen and in an hour come back and say, "Oh, where is my meal?" Nonsense! Who will cook your meal? You'll starve. But take help of a living being, and then we'll cook and we can eat. This is our experience. So if there is combination, then who is combining? They are fools not to know how combination takes place.

Devotee: Scientists now say life arose out of four basic elements: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen.

Srila Prabhupada: If the basic principle is chemicals, who made the chemicals? That question should be asked.

Devotee: Isn't it possible that one day science will discover the source of these chemicals?

Srila Prabhupada: There is no question of discovering: the answer is already known, although it may not be known to you. We know. The Vedanta says, janmady asya yatah: the original source of everything is Brahman, Krsna. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: "I am the origin of everything." (Bhagavad-gita 10.8) So we know that there is a big brain who is doing everything. We know. The scientists may not know; that is their foolishness.

Devotee: They might say the same thing about us.

Srila Prabhupada: No, they cannot say the same thing about us. We accept Krsna, but not blindly. Our predecessors, the great acaryas and learned scholars, have accepted Krsna as the origin of everything, so we are not following blindly. We claim that Krsna is the origin, but what claim can the scientist make? As soon as he says "chance," it means that he has no knowledge. We don't say "chance." We have an original cause; but he says chance. Therefore he has no knowledge.

Devotee: They try to trace back the origin by means of excavation. And they have found that gradually through the years the animal forms are evolving toward increasingly more complex and specialized forms, from invertebrates to fishes, then to amphibians, then to reptiles and insects, to mammals and birds, and finally to humans. In that process many species, like the dinosaurs, appeared, flourished, and then disappeared forever, became extinct. Eventually, primitive apelike creatures appeared, and from them man gradually developed.

Srila Prabhupada: Is the theory that the human body comes from the monkeys?

Devotee: Humans and monkeys are related. They come from the same--

Srila Prabhupada: Related? Everything is related; that is another thing. But if the monkey body is developing into a human body, then why, after the human body is developed, doesn't the monkey species cease to exist?

Devotee: The humans and the monkeys are branches of the same tree.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and both are now existing. Similarly, we say that at the time the evolutionists say life began, there were human beings existing.

Devotee: They find no evidence for that.

Srila Prabhupada: Why no evidence?

Devotee: In the ground. By excavation. They find no evidence in the ground.

Srila Prabhupada: Is the ground the only evidence? Is there no other evidence?

Devotee: The only evidence they accept is the testimony of their senses.

Srila Prabhupada: But they still cannot prove that there was no human being at the time they say life originated. They cannot prove that.

Devotee: It appears that in certain layers of earth there are remains of apelike men--

Srila Prabhupada: Apelike men or manlike apes are still existing now, alongside human beings. If one thing has been developed by the transformation of another thing, then that original thing should no longer be in existence. When in this way a cause has produced its effect, the cause ceases to exist. But in this case we see that the cause is still present, that there are still monkeys and apes.

Devotee: But monkeys did not cause men; both came from the same common ancestor. That is their account.

Srila Prabhupada: We say that we all come from God, the same ancestor, the same father. The original father is Krsna. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (14.5), sarva-yonisu kaunteya: "Of as many forms as there are,..." aham bija-pradah pita: "I am the seed-giving father." So what is your objection to this?

Devotee: Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find in the deepest layers no evidence--

Srila Prabhupada: You are packed up with layers of earth, that's all. That is the boundary of your knowledge. But that is not knowledge; there are many other evidences.

Devotee: But surely if men were living millions of years ago, they would have left evidence, tangible evidence, behind them. I could see their remains.

Srila Prabhupada: So I say that in human society bodies are burned after death, cremated. So where does your excavator get his bones?

Devotee: Well, that's possible, but--

Srila Prabhupada: According to our Vedic system, the body is burned to ashes after death. Where, therefore, would the rascal get the bones? Animals are not burned; their bones remain. But human beings are burned, and therefore they cannot find their bones.

Devotee: I'm just saying that it appears, through layer after layer of deposits in the earth, that biological forms tend to progress from simple and primitive forms to more and more complex and specialized ones, until finally civilized man appears.

Srila Prabhupada: But at the present moment both simple and complex forms are existing. One did not develop into the other. For example, my childhood body has developed into my adult body, and the child's body is no longer there. So if the higher, complex species developed from the simpler, lower species, then we should see no simple species. But all species are now existing simultaneously.

When I see all 8,400,000 species of life existing, what is the question of development? Each species exists now, and it existed long ago. You might not have seen it, but you have no proper source of knowledge. You might have missed it. That is another thing.

Devotee: But all the evidence shows otherwise. Five hundred million years ago there were no land animals; there were only aquatics.

Srila Prabhupada: That is nonsense. You cannot give a history of five hundred million years! Where is the history of five hundred million years? You are simply imagining. You say "historical evidence," but where is your evidence? You cannot give a history for more than three thousand years, and you are speaking about five hundred million. This is all nonsense.

Devotee: If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer--

Srila Prabhupada: By dirt you are calculating five hundred million years? It could be ten years. You cannot give the history of human society past three thousand years, so how can you speak of four hundred or five hundred million years ago? Where were you then? Were you there, so you can say that all these species were not there? This is imagination. In this way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense.

We accept evolution, but not that the forms of the species are changing. The bodies are all already there, but the soul is evolving by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another. I have evolved from my childhood body to my adult body, and now my childhood body is extinct. But there are many other children. Similarly, all the species are now existing simultaneously, and they were all there in the past.

For example, if you are traveling in a train, you find first class, second class, third class; they are all existing. If you pay a higher fare and enter the first-class carriage, you cannot say, "Now the first class is created." It was always existing. So the defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the soul. The soul is evolving, transmigrating, from one compartment to another compartment, simply changing place. The Padma Purana says that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the soul evolves through them. This evolutionary process we accept: the soul evolves from aquatics to plants, to insects, to birds, to animals, and then to the human forms. But all these forms are already there. They do not change. One does not become extinct and another survive. All of them are existing simultaneously.

Devotee: But Darwin says there are many species, like dinosaurs, that are seen to be extinct.

Srila Prabhupada: What has he seen? He is not so powerful that he can see everywhere or everything. His power to see is limited, and by that limited power he cannot conclude that one species is extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, all the senses by which you gather knowledge are limited, so how can you say this is finished or that is extinct? You cannot see. You cannot search out. The earth's circumference is twenty-five thousand miles; have you searched through all the layers of rock and soil over the whole earth? Have you excavated all those places?

Devotee: No.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore our first charge against Darwin is this: He says there were no human beings millions of years ago. That is not a fact. We now see human beings existing along with all other species, and it should be concluded that this situation always existed. Human life has always been there. Darwin cannot say there was no human life.

Devotee: We don't see any dinosaurs existing.

Srila Prabhupada: You do not see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited, so what you see or don't see cannot be authoritative. So many people--the majority of people--say, "I don't see God." Shall we accept, then, that there is no God? Are we crazy for being devotees of God?

Devotee: No, but dinosaurs--

Srila Prabhupada: But simply by dinosaurs being missing you cannot make your case. What about all the other species?

Devotee: Many, many others are also extinct.

Srila Prabhupada: Say I accept that many are extinct--because the evolutionary process means that as an earlier species gradually changes into a later species, the earlier vanishes, becomes extinct. But we see that many monkeys are still here. Man evolved from the simians, but simians have not disappeared. Monkeys are here, and men are here.

Devotee: But still I'm not convinced. If we make geological investigations all over the world, not just here and there, but in many parts of the world, and in every case we find the same thing--

Srila Prabhupada: But I say you have not studied all over the world. Has Darwin studied all the continents on this planet? Has he gone down into the depths of the seas and there excavated all the layers of the earth? No. So his knowledge is imperfect. This is the relative world, and here everyone speaks with relative knowledge. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity.

Devotee: Actually, Darwin hit upon his theory because of what he observed on his voyage in 1835 to the Galapagos Islands, off the coast of South America. He found there species that exist nowhere else.

Srila Prabhupada: That means he has not seen all the species. He has not traveled all over the universe. He has seen one island, but he has not seen the whole creation. So how can he determine what species exist and don't exist? He has studied one part of this earth, but there are many millions of planets. He has not seen all of them; he has not excavated the depths of all the planets. So how can he conclude, "This is nature"? He has not seen everything, nor is it possible for any human being to see everything.

Devotee: Let's just confine ourselves to this planet.

Srila Prabhupada: No, why should we? Nature is not only on this planet.

Devotee: Because you said that on this planet there were complex forms of living beings millions and millions of years ago.

Srila Prabhupada: We are not talking about this planet, but about anywhere. You are referring to nature. Nature is not limited or confined to this planet. You cannot say that. Nature, material nature, includes millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions of planets. If you have studied only this planet, your knowledge is insufficient.

Devotee: But you said before that millions of years ago on this planet there were horses, elephants, civilized men--

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Devotee: But from hundreds of different sources there is no evidence.

Srila Prabhupada: I say they are existing now--men, horses, snakes, insects, trees. So why not millions of years ago?

Devotee: Because there is no evidence.

Srila Prabhupada: That doesn't mean... ! You limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge.

Devotee: I just want to find out for the time being about--

Srila Prabhupada: Why the time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point.

Devotee: Well, if you claim that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet--

Srila Prabhupada: Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. We learn from the Vedic texts that there are 8,400,000 species established. They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood--the number and types are fixed. But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. From the Vedas we know that there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of body. There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gita (5.18) says that one who is wise, a pandita, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. Panditah sama-darsinah. One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species.

Devotee: So Darwin and other material scientists who have no information about the soul--

Srila Prabhupada: They're missing the whole point.

Devotee: They say that all living things tend to evolve from lower to higher. In the history of the earth--

Srila Prabhupada: That may be accepted. For example, in an apartment building there are different kinds of apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartments. According to your desire and qualification, as you are fit to pay the rent, you are allowed to move up to the better apartments. But the different apartments are already there. They are not evolving. The residents are evolving by moving to new apartments as they desire.

Devotee: As they desire.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. According to our mentality at the time of death, we get another "apartment," another body. But the "apartment" is already there, not that I'm creating the "apartment."

And the classes of "apartments" are fixed at 8,400,000. Just like the hotel-keeper: he has experience of his customers coming and wanting different kinds of facilities. So he has made all sorts of accommodations to oblige all kinds of customers. Similarly, this is God's creation. He knows how far a living entity can think, so He has made all these different species accordingly. When God thinks, "Come on, come here," nature obliges. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani (Bhagavad-gita 3.27): Nature is offering facility. God, Krsna, is sitting in the heart of the living entity as Paramatma, and He knows, "He wants this." So the Lord orders nature, "Give him this apartment," and nature obliges: "Yes, come on; here is your apartment." This is the real explanation.

Devotee: I understand and accept that. But I'm still puzzled as to why there is no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms.

Srila Prabhupada: Why are you taking geological evidence as final? Is it final? Science is progressing. You cannot say it is final.

Devotee: But I have excavated all parts of the world, and every time--

Srila Prabhupada: No. You have not excavated all parts of the world.

Devotee: Well, on seven continents.

Srila Prabhupada: Seven continents is not the whole world. You say you have excavated the whole world, but we say no, not even an insignificant portion. So your knowledge is limited. Dr. Frog has examined his three-foot-wide well, and now he claims to know the ocean.

Experimental knowledge is always imperfect, because one experiments with imperfect senses. Therefore, scientific knowledge must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge.

Now you see no dinosaurs, nor have I seen all the 8,400,000 different forms of life. But my source of knowledge is different. You are an experimenter with imperfect senses. I have taken knowledge from the perfect person, who has seen everything, who knows everything. Therefore, my knowledge is perfect.

Say, for example, that I receive knowledge from my mother: "Here is your father." But you are trying to search out your father on your own. You don't go to your mother and ask; you just search and search. Therefore, no matter how much you search, your knowledge will always remain imperfect.

Devotee: And your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of life on this planet.

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes, because our Vedic information is that the first created being is the most intelligent, the most intellectual person within the universe--Lord Brahma, the cosmic engineer. So how can we accept your theory that intellect develops by evolution? We have received our Vedic knowledge from Brahma, who is so perfect.

Dr. Frog has studied his three-foot well, his little reservoir of water. The Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, but there is a vast difference. Dr. Frog cannot inform us about the Atlantic Ocean. But we take knowledge from the one who has made the Atlantic Ocean. So our knowledge is perfect.

Devotee: But wouldn't there be evidence in the earth, some remains?

Srila Prabhupada: Our evidence is intelligence, not stones and bones. Our evidence is intelligence. We get Vedic information by disciplic succession from the most intelligent. It is coming down by sruti, hearing. Vyasadeva heard from Narada, Narada heard from Brahma--millions and millions of years ago. Millions and millions of our years pass, and it is not even one day for Brahma. So millions and billions and trillions of years are not very astonishing to us, for that is not even one day of Brahma. But Brahma was born of Krsna, and intelligent philosophy has been existing in our universe from the date of Brahma's birth. Brahma was first educated by God, and His knowledge has been passed down to us in the Vedic literature. So we get such intelligent information in the Vedas.

But those so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow this system of descending knowledge, who do not accept knowledge thus received from higher authorities--they can't have any perfect knowledge, no matter what research work they carry out with their blunt senses. So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect.

Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. This point should be stressed. They are dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains. So which should be considered better?