(Continued)

Srila Prabhupada: What do you mean by material life? [Bob is silent] I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual?

Bob: Material.

Srila Prabhupada: Then how have we given up material life?

Bob: I think how I interpreted it was "a desire for our material gains..."

Srila Prabhupada: What is material?

Bob: Working towards material gains and not giving up all materials.

Srila Prabhupada: Material life means--when you desire to gratify your senses, that is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. But instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others, activities? We are using everything--table, chair, bed, tape recorder, typewriter--so what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Krsna.

Bob: The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures, but--see--I haven't felt this.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual pleasures come when you desire to please Krsna. That is spiritual pleasure. For example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. She's not eating, but when she sees that her son is eating very nicely, then she becomes pleased.

Bob: Hmm-m. Spiritual pleasure, then, is pleasing God.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual pleasure means the pleasure of Krsna.

Bob: Pleasing Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Material pleasure means the Pleasure of the senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you simply try to please Krsna, that is spiritual pleasure.

Bob: I had viewed this as--my thought of pleasing God was to--

Srila Prabhupada: Don't manufacture your ways of Pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose I want to please you. Then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture some service. That is not pleasing. Suppose I want a glass of water. If you concoct the idea, "Swamiji will be more pleased if I give him a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I Please you?" And if you do what I order, that will please me.

Bob: And pleasing Krsna, then, is being a devotee of Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada: A devotee is one who is always pleasing Krsna. He has no other business. That is a devotee.

Bob: Can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Krsna? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly--just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently, and once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. Maybe I don't chant Properly. I don't know.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, everything has a process. You have to adopt the process.

Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the more you become purified, the more you will feel ecstasy. This chanting process is the purifying process.

 

Chapter Six

The Perfect Devotee

February 29, 1972, evening

 

The Perfect Devotee

 

Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada, this afternoon we were discussing austerities.

Srila Prabhupada: Mm?

Syamasundara: If we don't practice austerities voluntarily, then we must involuntarily practice some austerities.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, under the direction of the spiritual master one should... You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master, you have to carry out his order. That is austerity.

Syamasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you must. Because you have surrendered to your spiritual master, his order is final. So even if you don't like it, you have to do it. To please me.

Syamasundara: Ah.

Srila Prabhupada: But you don't like... [He laughs.] Nobody likes to fast, but the spiritual master says, "Today, fasting," so what can be done? [Syamasundara laughs.] A disciple is one who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity.

Syamasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely enamored by the material life--they don't want to undergo austerity or bodily pain, but still they must. They are being forced by nature to suffer austerities.

Srila Prabhupada: That is forced austerity. That is not good. Voluntary austerity will help.

Syamasundara: If you don't undergo voluntary austerity, then you must be forced to undergo austerity.

Srila Prabhupada: That is the difference between man and animal. An animal cannot accept austerity. But a man can accept it. There is a nice foodstuff in the confectioner's shop, so a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money, so he can restrain himself. But when a cow comes, immediately she pushes her mouth in. You can beat her with a stick, but she will tolerate it. She will do that. Therefore an animal cannot undergo austerity. Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Krsna, dance, and Krsna sends very nice foodstuffs, and we eat. That's all. Why are your people not agreeable to such austerity? Chanting, dancing and eating nicely?

Bob: What is that?

Srila Prabhupada: Because we are following austerities, Krsna sends us nice things. So we are not losers. When you become Krsna-ized, then you get more comforts than at the present moment. That's a fact. I have been living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulties. Before taking sannyasa I was living in Delhi. So I had no difficulties, although I was living alone.

Syamasundara: If you don't accept spiritual discipline, then nature will force so many calamities.

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

 

daivi hy esa guna-mayi

mama maya duratyaya

mam eva ye prapadyante

mayam etam taranti te

 

["This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it."] Maya is imposing so many difficulties, but as soon as you surrender to Krsna, no more imposition.

Syamasundara: We were so foolish that we were always thinking, "In the future I'll be happy."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is maya, illusion. That is like the ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass. The ass is thinking, "Let me go forward a little, and I shall get the grass." [Bob laughs.] But it is always one foot distant. That is ass-ism. [They all laugh.] Everyone is thinking, "Let me go a little forward, and I'll get it. I'll be very happy."

Bob: I... I thank you so much for...

Srila Prabhupada: Hmm?

Bob: Tomorrow I'll have to leave you and--

Srila Prabhupada: Don't talk l-e-a-v-e, but talk l-i-v-e.

Bob: I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But...

Srila Prabhupada: Don't return.

Bob: I should stay here tomorrow--here?

Srila Prabhupada: Stay here.

Bob: You tell me to, I'll stay.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you are a very good boy. [There is a long pause. It is now, much quieter.] It is very simple. When the living entities forget Krsna, they are in this material world. Krsna means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes--everything.

Bob: What was that last?

Srila Prabhupada: Ah? Pastimes.

Bob: Pastimes.

Srila Prabhupada: When we speak of a king, it means the king's government, king's palace, king's queen, king's sons, secretaries, military strength--everything. Is it not?

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, Krsna being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Krsna, this means all the energies of Krsna. That is complete by saying, "Radha-Krsna." Radha represents all the energy of Krsna. And Krsna is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Krsna, the living entities are also included because the living entities are energies, different energies of Krsna--superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that is material existence. The whole world is not serving Krsna. They are serving Krsna in a different way. They are serving indirectly, just as disobedient citizens serve the government indirectly. Prisoners come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So, in the prison house, they are forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly. all the living entities here are godless, either by ignorance or by choice. They do not like to accept the supremacy of God. Demoniac. So we are trying to bring them to their original condition. That is the Krsna consciousness movement.

Bob: I'd like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about--medicine. I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn't go in the water. Some felt I should because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn't because I have a cold, and we were talking, and I don't understand. Do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.

Bob: But when one...

Srila Prabhupada: Any kind of distress we suffer is due to our impious activities in the past.

Bob: But when someone is removed from karmic influence...

Srila Prabhupada: Yes?

Bob: ... does he still get sick?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. For instance, this fan is moving. If you disconnect the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force--what is it called, physically, this force?

Syamasundara: Momentum.

Srila Prabhupada: Momentum. But as soon as it stops, no more movement. Similarly, even if a devotee who has surrendered to Krsna is suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore, a devotee does not take any material miseries as miseries. He takes them as Krsna's, God's, mercy.

Bob: A perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee...

Srila Prabhupada: A perfected soul is one who engages twenty-four hours a day in Krsna consciousness. That is perfection. That is a transcendental position. Perfection means to engage in one's original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in Bhagavad-gita:

 

sve sve karmany abhiratah

samsiddhim labhate narah

 

"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect." Complete perfection. Samsiddhi. Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization, spiritual realization. And samsiddhi means devotion, which comes after Brahman realization.

Bob: Could you just say that last thing again please?

Srila Prabhupada: Samsiddhi.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Sam means complete.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: And siddhi means perfection. In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that one who goes back home, back to Godhead, has attained the complete perfection. So perfection comes when one realizes that he is not this body; he is spirit soul. Brahma-bhuta--that is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And samsiddhi comes after Brahman realization, when one engages in devotional service. Therefore if one is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called samsiddhi.

Bob: I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness?

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m?

Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Is this a result of your past karma?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, he escapes. No more karma for a devotee. No more karmic reaction.

Bob: But you must be the best devotee.

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m... No, I don't consider myself the best devotee. I am the lowest.

Bob: No!

Srila Prabhupada: You are the best devotee.

Bob: [Laughs.] Oh, no, no! But, see, you say--what you say... always seems right.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Bob: Then you must be the best devotee.

Srila Prabhupada: The thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, comes to the second-class platform of a devotee.

Bob: What would the best devotee be doing?

Srila Prabhupada: The best devotee does not preach.

Bob: What does he do?

Srila Prabhupada: He sees that there is no need of preaching. For him, everyone is a devotee. [Bob laughs heartily] Yes, he sees no more nondevotees--all devotees. He is called an uttama-adhikari. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Radharani--She does not see anyone as a nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Radharani.

Bob: Who is this?

Srila Prabhupada: Radharani, Krsna's consort.

Bob: Ah.

Srila Prabhupada: If anyone approaches Radharani, She recommends to Krsna, "Here is the best devotee. He is better than Me," and Krsna cannot refuse him. That is the best devotee. But it is not to be imitated: "I have become the best devotee."

 

isvare tad-adhinesu

balisesu dvisatsu ca

prema-maitri-krpopeksa

yah karoti sa madhyamah

 

(Bhag. 11.2.46)

A second-class devotee has the vision that some are envious of God, but this is not the vision of the best devotee. The best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious of God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritamrta's author, Krsnadasa Kaviraja. He says, "I am lower than the worm in the stool."

Bob: Who is saying this?

Srila Prabhupada: Krsnadasa Kaviraja, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta: purisera kita haite muni se laghistha. He is not making a show. He is feeling like that. "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, but I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Krsna's service. I am not engaged." Caitanya Mahaprabhu said "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Krsna. I cry to make a show. If I had been a devotee of Krsna, I would have died long ago. But I am living. That is the proof that I do not love Krsna." That is the vision of the best devotee. He is so much absorbed in Krsna's love that he says, "Everything is going on, but I am the lowest. Therefore I cannot see God." That is the best devotee.

Bob: So a devotee must work for everybody's liberation?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master, not imitate the best devotee.

Bob: Excuse me?

Srila Prabhupada: One should not imitate the best devotee.

Bob: Imitate. Oh. I see.

Syamasundara: One time you said that sometimes you feel sickness or pain due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Can sometimes disease be due to that? Caused by that?

Srila Prabhupada: You see, Krsna says:

 

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

"I will deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." So Krsna is so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make them right. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Krsna, he also takes the responsibility for the sinful activities of his devotees. Therefore to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb them. So sometimes--because he is not Krsna--sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden, "Don't make many sisyas, many disciples." But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples--for expanding preaching--even if we suffer. That's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples. Therefore to make many disciples is a risky job unless one is able to assimilate all the sins.

 

vancha-kalpa-tarubhyas ca

krpa-sindhubhya eva ca

patitanam pavanebhyo

vaisnavebhyo namo namah

 

["I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord. They are just like desire trees who can fulfill the desires of everyone, and they are full of compassion for the fallen conditioned souls."] He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That idea is also in the Bible. Jesus Christ took all the sinful reactions of the people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of a spiritual master. Because Krsna is Krsna, He is apapa-viddha--He cannot be attacked by sinful reactions. But a living entity is sometimes subjected to their influence because he is so small. Big fire, small fire. If you put some big thing in a small fire, the fire itself may be extinguished. But in a big fire, whatever you put in is all right. The big fire can consume anything.

Bob: Christ's suffering was of that nature?

Srila Prabhupada: Mm-m?

Bob: Was Christ's suffering--

Srila Prabhupada: That I have already explained. He took the sinful reactions of all the people. Therefore he suffered.

Bob: I see.

Srila Prabhupada: He said--that is in the Bible--that he took all the sinful reactions of the people and sacrificed his life. But these Christian people have made it a law for Christ to suffer while they do all nonsense. [Bob gives a short laugh.] Such great fools they are! They have let Jesus Christ make a contract for taking all their sinful reactions so they can go on with all nonsense. That is their religion. Christ was so magnanimous that he took all their sins and suffered, but that does not induce them to stop all these sins. They have not come to that sense. They have taken it very easily. "Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we'll do all nonsense." Is it not?

Bob: It is so.

Srila Prabhupada: They should have been ashamed: "Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us, but we are continuing the sinful activities." He told everyone, "Thou shalt not kill," but they are indulging in killing, thinking, "Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us and take all the sinful reactions." This is going on. We should be very much cautious: "For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer, so I'll not commit even a pinch of sinful activities." That is the duty of the disciple. After initiation, all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, his spiritual master has to suffer. A disciple should be sympathetic and consider this. "For my sinful activities, my spiritual master will suffer." If the spiritual master is attacked by some disease, it is due to the sinful activities of others. "Don't make many disciples." But we do it because we are preaching. Never mind--let us suffer--still we shall accept them. Therefore your question was--when I suffer is it due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? That is my misdeed--that I accepted some disciples who are nonsense. That is my misdeed.

Bob: This happens on occasions?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. This is sure to happen because we are accepting so many men. It is the duty of the disciples to be cautious. "My spiritual master has saved me. I should not put him again into suffering." When the spiritual master is in suffering, Krsna saves him. Krsna thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Krsna is there.

 

kaunteya pratijanihi

na me bhaktah pranasyati

 

["O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes."] Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Krsna.

Bob: Your suffering is not the same kind of pain...

Srila Prabhupada: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes, so that the disciples may know, "Due to our sinful activities, our spiritual master is suffering."

Bob: You look very well now.

Srila Prabhupada: I am always well... in the sense that even if there is suffering, I know Krsna will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities.

Bob: But let us say when I--in the town I live in, I take boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water if I have been good enough not to get a disease? Then I may drink any water. And if I have been not acting properly. then I shall get disease anyway.

Srila Prabhupada: So long as you are in the material world, you cannot neglect physical laws. Suppose you go to a jungle and there is a tiger. It is known that it will attack you, so why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long as he has a physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: "I have become a devotee. I challenge everything." That is foolishness.

 

anasaktasya visayan

yatharham upayunjatah

nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe

yuktam vairagyam ucyate

 

The devotee is advised to accept the necessities of life without attachment. He'll take boiled water, but if boiled water is not available, does it mean he will not drink water? If it is not available, he will drink ordinary water. We take Krsna prasada, but while touring, sometimes we have to take some food in a hotel. Because one is a devotee, should he think, "I will not take any foodstuffs from the hotel. I shall starve"? If I starve, then I will be weak and will not be able to preach.

Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality, in that--

Srila Prabhupada: No, he has full individuality for pleasing Krsna. Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. It is not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality. Just like Arjuna--in the beginning, he was declining to fight, on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Krsna as his spiritual master, he became sisya [a disciple]. Then whatever Krsna ordered, he said yes. That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted: "Whatever Krsna says, I shall do it." Just like all my disciples--they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. For example, suppose a man does not use sex. It does not mean he has become impotent. If he likes, he can have sex life a thousand times. But he has voluntarily avoided it. Param drstva nivartate: he has a higher taste. Sometimes we fast, but that does not mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry or cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast.

Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual taste?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, in full.

Bob: Taste for different things?

Srila Prabhupada: Hm?

Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, he keeps everything. But he gives preference to Krsna. Suppose I like this thing but Krsna says, "No, you cannot use it." Then I shall not use it. It is for Krsna's sake.

 

nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe

yuktam vairagyam ucyate

 

Krsna says positively, "I like these things." So we have to offer to Krsna what He likes, and then we'll take prasada. Krsna likes Radharani. Therefore all the gopis, they are trying to push Radharani to Krsna. "Krsna likes this gopi. All right, push Her." That is Krsna consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Krsna, not to satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Krsna. "Ah, Krsna likes this. I must give Him this."

Bob: There is some prasada [food offered to Krsna]. It's offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasadams are served. Some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking.

Srila Prabhupada: You should not do that. The perfection is that whatever is offered to Krsna you should accept. That is perfection. You cannot say. "I like this, I don't like this." So long as you make such discrimination, that means you have not appreciated what prasada is.

A devotee: What if there is someone speaking of likes and dislikes? Say someone is preparing some prasada...

Srila Prabhupada: No disliking, no liking. Whatever Krsna likes, that's all right.

A devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasada for Krsna, but he does not make it so good, and it is--

Srila Prabhupada: No, if made sincerely with devotion, then Krsna will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Krsna bananas, but he was so absorbed in thought that he was throwing away the real bananas and he was giving Krsna the skin, and Krsna was eating. [All laugh] Krsna knew that he was giving in devotion, and Krsna can eat anything, provided there is devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also takes Krsna prasada, whether it is materially tasteful or not. We should accept everything.

A devotee: But if the devotion is not there, like in India...

Srila Prabhupada: If devotion is not there, He doesn't like any food, either tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it.

A devotee: In India... Somebody--

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, India, India. Don't talk of India! Talk of philosophy. If there is not devotion, Krsna does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. Lord Krsna is not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasty. Krsna has very many tasteful dishes in Vaikuntha. He is not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion, bhakti. The real thing is devotion, not the food. Krsna does not accept any food of this material world. He accepts only the devotion.

 

patram puspam phalam toyam

yo me bhaktya prayacchati

tad aham bhakty-upahrtam

asnami prayatatmanah

 

["If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."] "Because it has been offered to Me with devotion and love"--that is required. Therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Krsna does not accept anything from the hands of a nondevotee. Why should He accept? He is not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion, that's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee. Not a good cook. But if he is a devotee, then he will be a good cook also. Automatically he will become a good cook. Therefore one has to become a devotee only. Then all other good qualifications will automatically be there. And if he is a nondevotee, any good qualifications have no value. He is on the mental plane, so he has no good qualification. [There is a long pause in the conversation.]

Srila Prabhupada: And the time?

Syamasundara: Six o'clock.

Srila Prabhupada: Questions and answers are required. They are beneficial to all.

Bob: I still have a question on the prasada.

Srila Prabhupada: Suta Gosvami says:

 

munayah sadhu prsto 'ham

bhavadbhir loka-mangalam

yat krtah krsna-samprasno

yenatma suprasidati

 

["O sages, I have been justly questioned by you. Your questions are worthy because they relate to Lord Krsna and so are relevant to the world's welfare. Only questions of this sort are capable of completely satisfying the self."] Krsna-samprasnah, that is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-mangalam, auspicious for everyone. Both the questions and the answers.

Bob: I still do not understand so much about prasada. But if you like I'll think about it and ask you again tomorrow.

Srila Prabhupada: Prasada is always prasada. But because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasada.

Bob: I found specifically that what I mean--that some are too spicy, and it hurts my stomach.

Srila Prabhupada: Well... That is also due to not appreciating, but the cook should have consideration. Krsna must be offered first-class foodstuffs. So if he offers something last class, he is not performing his duty. But Krsna can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee can accept any prasada, even if it is spicy. Hiranyakasipu gave his son poison [and the son offered it to Krsna], and the son drank it as nectar. So even if it is spicy to others, taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. And Putana Raksasi--she also offered Krsna poison. But Krsna is so nice that He thought, "She took Me as My mother," so He took the poison and delivered her. Krsna does not take the bad side. A good man does not take the bad side--he takes only the good side. Just like one of my big Godbrothers--he wanted to make business with my Guru Maharaja [spiritual master], but my Guru Maharaja did not take the bad side. He took the good side. He thought, "He has come forward to give me some service."

Bob: Business with your--what was that? Business with who?

Srila Prabhupada: I am talking about my Guru Maharaja.

Bob: Oh, I see. I have another question on prasada, if I may. Let us say some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food--like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasada?

Srila Prabhupada: No, no. Those who are not perfect devotees may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. Why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long as you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So why should you artificially imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything?

Bob: Oh.

Srila Prabhupada: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Krsna is nectar. That's all. Krsna accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. Don't you see the point? A perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee and I have discrimination, why shall I imitate the perfect devotee? It may not be possible for me to digest everything because I am not a perfect devotee. A devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said:

 

krsna ye bhaje se bada catura

 

So a devotee knows his position, and he is intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly.

 

Chapter Seven

Acting in Knowledge of Krsna

February 29, 1972 (evening, continued)

 

Acting in Knowledge of Krsna

 

An Indian gentleman: By what kind of actions does one earn good karma?

Srila Prabhupada: Good karma means what is prescribed in the Vedas. Specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajna. Yajna means actions for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So good karma means performance of the yajnas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literatures. And the purpose of this yajna is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. A good, law-abiding citizen is one whose actions satisfy the government. So, good karma is to satisfy Lord Visnu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, modern civilization does not know what the Supreme Personality of Godhead is, what to speak of satisfying Him. people do not know. They are simply busy with material activities. Therefore all of them are performing only bad karma and therefore suffering. They are blind men leading other blind men. And both are then suffering by bad karma. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you will suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are recognized; you are sometimes given a title. This is good and bad karma. So, good karma means you enjoy some material happiness; bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in a good family; you get riches, good money. Then you become a learned scholar; you become beautiful also.

[Some time passes.]

Bob: What about the person who--who is not very aware of God, but...

Srila Prabhupada: Then he is an animal. The animal does not know what is good. A person who does not know what is God, or one who does not try to understand what is God--he is an animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God, or does not try to understand God, is nothing but an animal.

Bob: What about the innocent people?

Srila Prabhupada: The animal is very innocent. If you cut its throat, it won't protest. So innocence is not a very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance to cut their throats. So to become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our proposition is that one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Krsna. To become an innocent, ignorant simpleton is not a very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent.

Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is?

Srila Prabhupada: Intelligence means... One who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what are the interrelations--he is intelligent. The animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he is the body. Similarly, anyone who does not know what he is, he is not intelligent.

Bob: What about a person who does--tries to do--what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master but knows that if he were not honest he would not be caught. If he stays honest anyway... a person like that? Is that some kind of good karma?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, to become honest is also good karma. How to become a good man is described in the Bhagavad-gita very elaborately.

 

daivi sampad vimoksaya

nibandhayasuri mata

 

So if you become qualified with the daivi sampad (transcendental qualities), then, vimoksaya--you will be liberated. And, nibandhayasuri--if you are qualified with the demoniac qualifications, then you will be more and more entangled. Unfortunately the modern civilization does not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They are so much ignorant; they do not know. Suppose if I ask you what you mean by liberation, can you answer? [No answer.] And if I ask you what you mean by entanglement, can you answer? [Again no answer.] These words are there in the Vedic literature--liberation and entanglement--but, at the present moment, people do not even know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They are so ignorant and foolish, and still they are proud of their advancement in knowledge. Can you answer what is liberation? You are a professor, teacher, but if I ask you, can you explain what is liberation?

Bob: Not adequately because if I could explain, then I would become liberated very fast.

Srila Prabhupada: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast or slow liberation? [Everyone laughs.] There is no question of liberation. It is neither fast nor slow. You should first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking, understanding, whether it is going fast or slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation?

Bob: Umm...

Srila Prabhupada: I am asking. You daily ask me. I am asking you.

Bob: [Laughs.] Ah--okay... I'll think for a moment.

Srila Prabhupada: Liberation is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is mukti. So that is defined in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

muktir hitvanyatha rupam

svarupena vyavasthitih

 

One should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing because nobody knows his original position and how to act properly. Because people are generally acting differently, because they do not know what is proper--the modern population is so much ignorant about their life--it is a very awkward position. They do not know.

Bob: Can you tell me who is honest?

Srila Prabhupada: If one does not know what is honesty, how can he be honest? But if you know what is honesty, then you can be honest. What is honesty? First of all explain.

Bob: Aaah, ummm--Honesty is doing what you really feel is right.

Srila Prabhupada: A thief is feeling, "I must steal to provide for my children. It is right." Does it mean that he is honest? Everyone thinks--The butcher thinks, "It is my life. I must cut the throat of the animals daily." Just like that--what is that hunter? And Narada Muni met him?

Syamasundara: Mrgari.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, Mrgari. Narada asked him, "Why are you killing in this way?" And he said, "Oh, it is my business. My father taught it." So he was honestly doing that. So a feeling of honesty depends on culture. A thief's culture is different. He thinks stealing is honest.

Bob: So what is honesty?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is my question. [Everyone laughs.] Real honesty is that you should not encroach upon another's property. This is honesty. For instance, this is my table. If you want to take it away while going, is that honesty? So therefore the simple definition of honesty is that you should not encroach upon another's rights. That is honesty.

Bob: So somebody who is honest would be in the mode of goodness? Would that be correct?

Srila Prabhupada: Certainly, certainly. Because the mode of goodness means knowledge. So if you know, "This table does not belong to me; it belongs to Swamiji," you will not try to take it away. Therefore, one must know--be thoroughly well conversant--then he can be honest.

Bob: So, now you have said the mode of goodness was knowledge of God, but somebody may be honest without having very much knowledge of God.

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m?

Bob: Without--without being honest--without thinking they are honest because it is God's wishes--they just feel like they ought to be honest.

Srila Prabhupada: Mmm. God wishes everyone to be honest. Why should God think otherwise?

Bob: So... so you may follow God's wishes without knowing you are following God's wishes? Like somebody may be in the mode...

Srila Prabhupada: No, following without knowing--that is absurd. You must know the order of God. And if you follow that, then that is honesty.

Bob: But somebody would not be honest without knowing God?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, because God is the supreme proprietor, the supreme enjoyer, and He is the supreme friend. That is the statement of the Bhagavad-gita. If anyone knows these three things, then he is in full knowledge. These three things only: that God is the proprietor of everything, God is friend of everyone, and God is the enjoyer of everything. For example, everyone knows that in the body, the stomach is the enjoyer. Not the hands, legs, eyes, ears. These are there simply to help the stomach. Eyes--the vulture goes seven miles up to see where there is food for the stomach. Is it not?

Bob: That is so.

Srila Prabhupada: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food. Similarly, as in this body the stomach is the enjoyer, the central figure of the whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, is Krsna, God. He is the enjoyer. We can understand this just by considering our own bodies. The body is also a creation. The body has the same mechanical nature you will find in the whole universe. The same mechanical arrangement will be found anywhere you go, even in animals. In the human body or in the cosmic manifestation--almost the same mechanism. So you can understand very easily that in this body--any body, your body--the stomach is the enjoyer. There is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is the friend also. Because if you cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body become weak. Therefore the stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distributing the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not?

Bob: It is so.

Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Krsna. He is the enjoyer, He is the friend, and, as the supreme proprietor, He is maintaining everyone. Just as a king can maintain the whole country's citizens because he is the proprietor. Without being the proprietor, how can one become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood. Krsna is the enjoyer, Krsna is the proprietor, and Krsna is the friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full; you do not require to understand anything more.

 

yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati

 

If you simply understand Krsna by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. But people will not agree. "Why should Krsna be the proprietor? Hitler should be the proprietor. Nixon ..." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is complete. But you will not accept--you will put forward so many impediments to understanding these three things, and that is the cause of our trouble. But in the Bhagavad-gita it is plainly said:

 

bhoktaram yajna-tapasam

sarva-loka-mahesvaram

suhrdam sarva-bhutanam

jnatva mam santim rcchati

 

["The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries."] But we won't take this. We shall put forward so many false proprietors, false friends, false enjoyers, and they will fight one another. This is the situation of the world. If education is given and people take this knowledge, there is immediately peace (santim rcchati). This is knowledge, and if anyone follows this principle, he is honest. He does not claim, "It is mine." He knows everything: "Oh, it is Krsna's, so therefore everything should be utilized for Krsna's service." That is honesty. If this pencil belongs to me, the etiquette is--My students sometimes ask, "Can I use this pencil?" "Yes, you can." Similarly, if I know that everything belongs to Krsna, I will not use anything without His permission. That is honesty. And that is knowledge. One who does not know is ignorant; he is foolish. And a foolish man commits criminality. All criminals are foolish men. Out of ignorance one commits lawbreaking. So ignorance is not bliss, but it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the difficulty. The whole world is enjoying ignorance. And when you talk about Krsna consciousness, they do not very much appreciate it. If I say, "Krsna is the proprietor; you are not the proprietor," you will not be very much satisfied. [They laugh.] Just see--ignorance is bliss. So it is my foolishness to say the real truth. Therefore it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. So we are taking the risk of offending

people, and they will think we are fools. If I say to a rich man, "You are not the proprietor. Krsna is the proprietor, so whatever money you have, spend it for Krsna," he will be angry.

 

upadeso hi murkhanam

prakopaya na santaye

 

"If you instruct a rascal, he'll be angry." Therefore we go as beggars: "My dear sir, you are a very nice man. I am a sannyasi beggar, so I want to construct a temple. Can you spare some money?" So he will think, "Oh, here is a beggar. Give him some money." [They laugh] But if I say, "Dear sir, you have millions of dollars at your disposal. That is Krsna's money. Give it to me. I am Krsna's servant." Oh, he'll... [Everyone laughs.] He will not be very satisfied. Rather, if I go as a beggar, he will give me something. And if I tell him the truth, he will not give me a farthing. [They laugh] We convince him as beggars. We are not beggars. We are Krsna's servants. We don't want anything from anyone. Because we know Krsna will provide everything.

Bob: Oh-h...

Srila Prabhupada: This is knowledge. For instance, a child will sometimes take something important, so we have to flatter him. "Oh, you are so nice. Please take these lozenges and give me that paper. It is nothing; it is paper." And he will say, "Oh, yes. Take. That's nice." Two-paise lozenges--very nice and sweet. So we have to do that. Why? Because a man will go to hell by taking Krsna's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage him in the Krsna consciousness movement.

Bob: And then he may not go to hell?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You save him from going to hell.

needs it. Who is not poor? There are so many gentlemen sitting here. Who is not in need of money and food? You are also in need of money. So how do you distinguish poor from rich? Everyone needs it. If that is your definition... If one needs money and food, then everyone needs money and food. So everyone is poor.

Bob: So, but, well--I was thinking in terms of just people who are relatively poor.

Srila Prabhupada: Relatively, relatively, maybe. You are more hungry than me. That does not mean you are not hungry or I am not hungry. I do not feel hungry now. That does not mean I do not feel hungry or I am not hungry. For the time being you may not be hungry. But tomorrow you'll be hungry.

Bob: What I feel is that--somehow these people--that... Everybody around them may be stealing, but they still stand up and don't steal. These people somehow deserve something good to happen to them.

Srila Prabhupada: But the man who is thinking that he is not stealing is also a thief because he does not know that everything belongs to Krsna. Therefore, whatever he is accepting, he is stealing.

Bob: Is he less of a thief?

Srila Prabhupada: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not stealing?

Bob: But maybe if I know it is yours and I take it, I am a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is. I just think it may be nobody's, and I take it.

Srila Prabhupada: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody. And you take it without his permission. You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you know, "It must belong to someone." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things left there--government property for repairing roads or some electrical work. A man may think, "Oh, fortunately these things are lying here, so I may take them." Is it not stealing?

Bob: It is stealing.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. He does not know that this is all government property. He takes it away. That is stealing. And when he is caught, he is arrested, and he is punished. So, similarly, whatever you are collecting--suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property?

Bob: No.

Srila Prabhupada: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So, even if you drink a glass of water without knowing to whom it belongs, you are a thief. So you may think, "I am honest," but actually you are a thief. You must remember Krsna. "Oh, Krsna, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink." This is honesty. Therefore a devotee always thinks of Krsna. In all activities: "Oh, it is Krsna's." This is honesty. So without Krsna consciousness, everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber. These qualifications. Therefore our conclusion is that anyone who does not understand Krsna has no good qualifications. Neither is he honest, nor has he knowledge. Therefore he is a third-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Giriraja?

Giriraja: [a disciple]: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: This is not dogmatism. This is a fact. [Some time elapses.] So, you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty?

Bob: I--in a way. In a way.

Srila Prabhupada: And is there another way? [Bob laughs.] Is there any other way? Defy it! [Bob laughs again. Srila Prabhupada also laughs.] Another way? Giriraja?

Giriraja: No.

Srila Prabhupada: Is there an alternative? We do not say anything that can be defied by anyone. That experience we have. Rather, we defy everyone: "Any questions?" Till now, Krsna has given us protection. In big, big meetings in big, big countries, after speaking I ask, "Any questions?"

Bob: Now, I have none.

Srila Prabhupada: In London, we had--how many days, lectures in that--what is that? Conway Hall?

A devotee: Twelve days. Conway Hall.

Srila Prabhupada: Conway Hall.

A devotee: Twelve days.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. So after every meeting I was asking, "Any questions?"

Bob: Did you get many questions?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. [Everyone laughs.]

Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish?

Srila Prabhupada: One having no knowledge is to be considered foolish.

An Indian gentleman: Prabhupada, I have one personal question. Can I ask?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian gentleman: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week--it was named, "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Week."

Srila Prabhupada: Mmm. [He gives a quick laugh] This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty, and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouses. You see? That is another foolishness.

Indian gentleman: So I wanted just to ask--

Srila Prabhupada: Asking--before you ask, I give you the answer. [All laugh] That is another foolishness. They are regularly cruel to animals, and they are making a society...

Bob: Maybe this is--

Srila Prabhupada: Suppose a gang of thieves has a signboard--"Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such a signboard.

Syamasundara: Our landlord in the San Francisco temple was named Goodman.

Srila Prabhupada: The philosophy is that when an animal is not properly nourished, that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing it to starve, better to kill it. That is their theory. Is it not?

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: They say, "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much pain." That theory is coming in communist countries. An old man--grandfather--is suffering, so better to kill him. And there--in Africa there is a class of men who make a festival by killing their great-grandfathers. Is it not? Yes.

Syamasundara: They eat them?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. [Syamasundara laughs.] Yes?

A devotee: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the Army. So when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, "The poor dog. He will be so heartbroken not to be with us," so they put him to sleep--killed him.

Srila Prabhupada: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered, "Instead of letting it suffer, just kill it."

Giriraja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciples. What do you mean by sinful activities?

Srila Prabhupada: Sinful activities means that you promised, "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not follow, that is sinful. That is the promise. Very simple. You break the promise and do nasty things; therefore you are sinful. Is it not?

Giriraja: Yes. [pause] But there are some things that we're instructed to do...

Srila Prabhupada: Hm-m?

Giriraja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which, even though we try to do, we cannot do perfectly yet.

Srila Prabhupada: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How is that?

Giriraja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to, but--

Srila Prabhupada: Well, that is not a fault. Suppose you are trying to do something. Due to your inexperience if you sometimes fail, that is not a fault. You are trying. There is a verse in the Bhagavatam--hm-m--that if a devotee is trying his best but due to his incapability he sometimes fails, Krsna excuses him. And in the Bhagavad-gita also it is said:

 

api cet su-duracaro

bhajate mam ananya-bhak

 

Sometimes not willingly but due to past bad habits--habit is second nature--one does something nonsensical. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that--"I have done this." And he should try to avoid it as far as possible. But habit is second nature. Sometimes, in spite of your trying hard, maya is so strong that it pushes with Pitfalls. That can be excused. Krsna excuses. But those who are doing something willingly are not excused. On the strength that I am a devotee, if I think, "Because I am chanting, I may therefore commit all this nonsense, and it will be nullified," that is the greatest offense.

 

Chapter Eight

Advancing in Krsna Consciousness

(an exchange of letters)

 

Advancing in Krsna Consciousness

 

Springfield, New Jersey

June 12, 1972

 

Dear Prabhupada,

I offer my humble obeisances.

I have been associating with the devotees of the New York temple. With the association of such fine, advanced devotees, I hope that I may make some advancement in Krsna consciousness. My fiancee has started to come to the temple and is chanting a little. She knew nothing about Krsna consciousness until I wrote her about it from India. Atreya Rsi has been kind enough to invite us to his home so that we may see an ideal householder life.

I went to Bombay the end of April for termination from the Peace Corps. I was fortunate enough to come down with a minor illness, so that I had to stay in Bombay for two weeks. I spent the time with the advanced and kind devotees at Juhu. Unfortunately you had left five days previously.

I understand so little, but I have faith in the process of Krsna consciousness and hope to take to it more and more.

I look forward to Atreya Rsi's description of the temple in Los Angeles and hope that I may personally hear you in New York.

Thank you for the kindness you have shown to a very undeserving boy.

 

Sincerely,

Bob Cohen

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ISKCON Los Angeles

June 16, 1972

 

Bob Cohen

Springfield, New Jersey

 

My dear Bob,

Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated June 12, 1972. I have noted the sentiments expressed therein with great pleasure. I am very glad to hear that you are associating with us. I know that you are a very good boy, very intelligent, and your behavior is gentle, so I have all confidence that very quickly Krsna will bestow all His blessings upon you, and you will feel yourself becoming perfectly happy in Krsna consciousness. One makes his advancement in Krsna consciousness by voluntarily giving up his attachment to material nature, or maya. Such renunciation is called tapasya. But we are not very willing to perform austerities without good reason; therefore any man with a good scientific and philosophical mind, like your good self, must first appreciate what transcendental knowledge is. If you get knowledge, automatically tapasya will follow, and then you make your advancement in spiritual life. So to get knowledge is the first item for anyone who is hoping to find the perfection of his life. Therefore I advise you to read our books daily as far as possible and try to understand the subject matter from different angles of vision by discussing it frequently with the devotees at the New York temple. In this way you will gradually become convinced, and by your sincere attitude and devotional service you will make progress.

Yes, having some faith in me and in this Krsna consciousness process is the first and only requirement for getting actual wisdom. If there is faith, understanding will follow. And as your understanding increases, so will your disgust with the spell of illusory energy. And when you voluntarily give up your entanglements in the material world, then the progress is assured.

I think we are just now typing up the tapes of those conversations we held in Mayapur, and we shall be publishing them as a book. It will be called Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers. I shall send you a copy as soon as they are ready to distribute. Meanwhile, I shall be stopping in New York for two or three days on my way to London for the Ratha-yatra Festival there. I am not yet certain when I shall be arriving in New York, but it will be some time in the early part of July. You may keep in regular contact with Bali Mardana regarding the arrival date, and I shall be very much engladdened to meet with you in New York once again. Again we shall discuss if you have any questions.

Hoping this will meet you in good health and a happy mood,

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Chapter Nine

Deciding for the Future

New York--July 4, 1972

 

Deciding for the Future

 

Bob: I received your very kind letter.

Srila Prabhupada: Oh.

Bob: About a week ago.

Srila Prabhupada: Now, you are a very intelligent boy. You can try to understand this philosophy. It is very important. For sense gratification people are wasting so much energy. They are not aware of what is going to happen in the next life. There is a next life, but foolish people are ignorant. This life is preparation for the next life. That they do not know. The modern education and its universities are completely in darkness about this simple knowledge. We are changing bodies every moment--that is a medical fact. After leaving this body, we will have to accept another body. How are we going to accept that body? What kind of body? This can also be known. For example, if someone is being educated, one can understand that when he passes his examination, he is going to be an engineer or medical practitioner. Similarly, in this life, you can prepare yourself to become something in the next life.

Barbara: [Bob's wife] Can we decide what we want to be next life?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, you can decide. We have decided that next life we are going to Krsna. This is our decision--back home, back to Godhead. Suppose you want to become educated. After this decision that you are going to be an engineer or you are going to be a medical practitioner, with that objective you prepare and educate yourself. Similarly, you can decide what you are going to do next life. But if you don't decide, then the material nature will decide.

Barbara: Could I have been Krsna conscious in my last life?

Srila Prabhupada: It doesn't matter. But you can become. Take advantage of our Krsna consciousness movement.

A devotee: She's asking if it was possible that in her last life she was a Krsna devotee and has come back again.

Srila Prabhupada: When one is perfectly Krsna's devotee, he does not come back. But if there is a little deficiency, then there is a possibility of coming back. But even though there is a deficiency, he comes back to a nice family. Sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate. ["The unsuccessful yogi takes birth in a religious or aristocratic family."] Human intelligence can decide for the future. That is human intelligence. The animal cannot decide. We have discriminatory power. If I do this, I will be benefited; if I do that, I will not be benefited. This is there in human life. So you have to use it properly. You should know what is our goal of life and decide in that way. That is human civilization....

Barbara: Have you ever seen Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Barbara: You have?

Srila Prabhupada: Daily. Every moment.

Barbara: But not in the material body?

Srila Prabhupada: He has no material body.

Barbara: Well, in the temple here they have pictures of Krsna....

Srila Prabhupada: That is not a material body. You are seeing materially because you have material eyes. Because you have material eyes, you cannot see the spiritual form. Therefore He kindly appears to be in a material body so that you can see. However, because He has kindly made Himself just fit for your seeing, that does not mean He has a material body. Suppose the President of the United States kindly comes to your house. That does not mean that his position and your position are the same. It is his kindness. Out of love, he may come to your house, but that does not mean he is on the same level as you. Similarly, because we cannot see Krsna with our present eyes, Krsna therefore appears before us as a painting, as made of stone, as made of wood. And Krsna is not different from these paintings and wood because everything is Krsna.

Barbara: After we die, what happens to our spirit?

Srila Prabhupada: You get another body.

Barbara: Immediately?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just as when you change your apartment: you fix up your new apartment first; then you leave this one and go there.

Barbara: So do we know what type of body we will get?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, provided you are qualified. Otherwise nature will arrange for it. Those who know--they know what is there. But for those who do not know, nature will arrange things. If you do not know, this means you have not prepared your life, so accidentally, at the time of death, your mentality will create another body, and nature will supply it.

Barbara: And chanting--what does chanting do?

Srila Prabhupada: That you can ask these boys [the devotees]. They will explain.

Bob: If Krsna controls everything, how does Krsna control a nondevotee?

Srila Prabhupada: By maya. Just as the government controls everything. A kingdom is controlled by the king's departments.

Bob: And how does Krsna control a devotee?

Srila Prabhupada: Just as you control your beloved. For example, if you have a beloved child, you control him for his benefit. If he is going to touch fire, you will immediately tell him, "No, no, my dear child. Don't touch it." So a Krsna conscious person, a devotee, is never misled, because Krsna is always guiding him, whereas those who are not Krsna conscious are in the charge of maya, and maya will do the needful, as you have seen.

Bob: Is it preset, when we're born, the time that we'll die?

Srila Prabhupada: What?

Bob: Is the time that I'm going to die, and others are going to die, preset before we are born? When I'm born, do I have a certain given life span?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

A devotee: And he cannot change that?

Srila Prabhupada: No, he cannot change it, but Krsna can change it.

Devotee: If he commits suicide, is that also preset?

Srila Prabhupada: Not preset. That you can do because you have a little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide; it is unnatural. So because we have independence, we can go from nature to "un-nature." A prisoner cannot go out of the prison house naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away. Then he becomes a criminal for further imprisonment. Naturally, the prisoner cannot go out of the prison house, but if somehow or other he manages to escape, that means he becomes again a criminal. He will be arrested again, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more. So, naturally we cannot violate destiny. But if we do it, then we will suffer. But our destiny can be changed by Krsna when we are Krsna conscious. We do not do it, but Krsna will do it. Krsna says: aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: "I shall give you protection." That change takes place for my protection.

There are two stages--nondevotee and devotee. The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and the devotee is under the direct control of Krsna. In the office of a big man, an executive of a big company, there are many employees, and they are controlled by different departmental superintendents. But although outside of home he controls indirectly, the same man at home is controlling his children directly. But he is always a controller. Similarly, God is the controller always. When one becomes a devotee, he is controlled by God; when he is a nondevotee, he is controlled by His agent, maya. But he has to be controlled. For example, every citizen of America is controlled by the government. When he is all right, the civil department controls him; when he is not all right, the criminal department controls him. But he cannot say, "I am not controlled." That is not possible. Everyone is controlled. If somebody says, "I am not controlled," he is not sane; he is crazy. Everyone is controlled. So either you are controlled directly by God, or you are controlled by His agency, maya. Being controlled by maya, you spoil your life; you remain in material existence one birth after another, changing your bodies. But if you choose to be controlled by God, then after this body, you go back home, back to Godhead. Then your life is successful. You cannot exist without being controlled; that is not possible. That is intelligence. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: "After many births of traveling or speculation, one surrenders unto Me." Vasudevah sarvam iti: "Krsna, You are everything. So I have come. Accept me. I am now fully surrendered unto You, and You control me. I am controlled. For so long I have been controlled by these rascals. There is no benefit. I have been controlled by my senses. So under the control of the senses I have served so-called family, society, country, nation--up to serving the dogs. But nothing has given me satisfaction. Therefore now I have good sense; I put myself under Your control. Instead of being controlled by dog, let me be controlled by God." This is Krsna consciousness. Have you not seen how a man is controlled by a dog? In the street the dog stops, passes stool, and his master will stand and wait. Is it not? He is passing stool and urine, and the master is thinking, "I am master." But he is being controlled. That is maya. He has become servant of the dog, but he is thinking, "I am master." So unless one is Krsna conscious, one cannot understand. We can understand that this rascal is being controlled by his dog, but he is thinking that he is the master. We can understand. What do you think? Has he not become controlled by the dog?

Bob: That is so.

Srila Prabhupada: But he is thinking, "I am the master of the dog." A family man is controlled by his wife, his children, by his servants, by everyone, but he is thinking, "I am master." President Nixon is thinking that he is master of his country, but he is controlled. At once he can be dismissed by the public, his servants! And he will take a position, claiming, "I will give you very good service," and "I shall be a first-class servant." Therefore people vote, "All right, you become president." And he is advertising: "Reelect me! Reelect me!" That means he is a servant. But he is thinking, "I am master." That is the position. Maya. One who is controlled by maya is thinking himself master, but he is a servant. And a devotee never thinks to himself, "I am master," only "I am servant." That is the difference between maya and reality. He at least knows: "I am never master. I am always a servant." When a servant is thinking, "I am master," that is called illusion. But when a servant thinks, "I am a servant," that is not illusion. That is mukti, liberation. Because he is not controlled by false thoughts. Try to think about this subject matter. A devotee is never controlled by false thoughts. He knows his position. Svarupena vyavasthitih. Mukti, liberation, means to be situated in one's own constitutional position. I am a servant. So if I know that I am a servant, that is my liberation. And if I think that I am master, that is bondage. This is the difference between conditioned life and liberated life.

So these Krsna conscious devotees are always thinking that they are servants of Krsna. Therefore they are all liberated. They do not endeavor for liberation. They are already liberated because they are situated in their constitutional position. They are not artificially thinking, "I am master." Otherwise, everyone is thinking, "I am master." That is illusion. You cannot be master in any state of your life; you must remain a servant. That is your position. When one thinks artificially that he is master, that is his conditioned life. And when one voluntarily surrenders to the supreme master, that is his liberation. A devotee does not try for liberation separately. As soon as he surrenders to Krsna or Krsna's representative, he is liberated.

Bob: Prabhupada, people that engage in religions, like these "Jesus freaks" and other people, claim that Jesus is guiding them. Can this be so?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but they are not taking the guidance. Just like the Christians. Jesus is guiding them, "Thou shalt not kill," but they are killing. Where is the Jesus guidance? Simply saying, "I am guided by Jesus Christ"--will that do? "But I don't care for his words." Is that guidance? Nobody is being guided by Jesus Christ. Their claim is false. It is very hard to find a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ's guidance is available, but nobody is caring for him. They have taken Jesus Christ as contractor to take up their sins. That is their philosophy. They commit all kinds of sins, and poor Jesus Christ will be responsible. That is their religion. Therefore they say, "We have a very good religion. For all our sinful activities, Jesus Christ will die." So is that good religion? They have no sympathy for Jesus Christ. He died for our sins. Why should we commit sins again? Such a great life has been sacrificed for our sins, so we should be guided by Jesus Christ. But if you take it otherwise--"Ah, we shall go on committing all sins, and Jesus Christ will make a contract to nullify all my sins; I'll simply go to the church and confess and come back and again do all nonsense"--do you think that shows very good intelligence?

Bob: No.

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, one who is guided by Jesus Christ will certainly get liberation. But it is very hard to find a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ.

Bob: What about the "Jesus freaks," the young people that have joined the Jesus movement? They read the Bible very often, and they try to--

Srila Prabhupada: But violence is against the Bible's injunctions. How can they kill if they are following the Bible?

Bob: I asked one this, and he claimed that Jesus was also eating meat in the Bible.

Srila Prabhupada: That's all right. He may eat anything. He is powerful. But he has ordered, "Thou shalt not kill. You must stop killing." He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. But you cannot compare to Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate Jesus Christ; you have to abide by his order. Then you are guided by Jesus Christ. That is actually obedience. That is explained in the Bhagavata. One who is isvara, who is empowered, can do anything, but we cannot imitate. We have to abide by his order: "What he says to me, that I will do." You cannot imitate. You say that Jesus Christ ate meat. Admitting that, you do not know in what condition he ate meat. He is himself eating meat, but he is advising others not to kill. Do you think that Jesus Christ was contradicting himself?

Bob: No.

Srila Prabhupada: He cannot do that. That is real faith in him--that he cannot do that. So why has he eaten meat? He knows, but he has asked me not to kill. I have to follow. That is the real system. You are not Jesus Christ; you cannot imitate him. He has sacrificed his life for God. Can you

do that? So why shall you imitate Jesus Christ? You are imitating Jesus Christ by eating meat. Why not imitate Jesus Christ and sacrifice your life for spreading God consciousness? What do you think? Yes, when you preach you can say what you think. They are so-called Christians--but what are they doing for God? Just consider the sun. The sun is absorbing urine. Can you drink urine? If you want to imitate the sun--"Oh, here is the sun absorbing urine. Let me drink urine"--can you? Jesus Christ is powerful; he can do everything. But we cannot imitate; we have to simply abide by his order. That is real Christianity. We cannot imitate a powerful man. That is wrong. In our Vedic literature, there was a poison ocean, so people could not find out what to do with it. Then Lord Siva said, "All right, I'll drink it." So he drank the whole poison ocean and kept it in his throat. Can you drink poison? Not the ocean--just one cup? So how can we imitate Lord Siva? Lord Siva never advised that we drink poison. So you have to abide by the advice, not imitate. These LSD and marijuana people say that Lord Siva used to smoke ganja. But Lord Siva drank the whole poisoned ocean. Can you do that? Lord Siva's instructions should be taken. He says that the best worship is worship of Visnu. Visnor aradhanam param. When he was asked by Parvati what method of worship is best, then he said, "The best worship is worship of Lord Visnu [Krsna]." There are many demigods, but he recommended Visnu worship as the best. And better than Visnu worship is worship of a Vaisnava. Tadiyanam--His servants, or those who are in relation to Him. For instance, we are worshiping this plant, tulasi. We are not worshiping all plants, but because this tulasi has a very intimate connection with Krsna, Visnu, we are therefore worshiping her. Similarly, if anything is intimately related with Krsna, worship of that thing is better than worship of Visnu.

Bob: Why is that?

Srila Prabhupada: Because Krsna will be pleased. Suppose you have a dog and some friends come and pat your dog. [Srila Prabhupada makes big patting motions.] You become pleased. You become pleased: "Oh, he is my good friend." You see how they think. We see this--some friend comes and says, "My, what a nice dog you have." [Laughter.] [Some Indian guests enter the room.]

Srila Prabhupada: Please have some prasada.

[Srila Prabhupada continues speaking with his guests, sometimes in English and sometimes Hindi. It is his last day in New York, and his plane to London is scheduled to leave in only a few hours, Bob has brought a car to drive Srila Prabhupada to Kennedy Airport. The devotees are scurrying about, bringing luggage to the car, putting the manuscripts of Srila Prabhupada's latest translating work in order, and making other last-minute arrangements.]

Syamasundara: Everything's ready, Srila Prabhupada. The car is waiting for us.

Srila Prabhupada: So? We can go now? All right. Hare Krsna!

 

Concluding words

 

On July 19, 1976, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada accepted my wife and me as his disciples and initiated us with the names Bhakti-devi dasi and Brahmatirtha dasa. As I reflect back on that day, I can see how fortunate I was to have met His Divine Grace and my Godbrothers in the Hare Krsna movement.

When I was handed my beads at initiation, I promised to follow the regulative principles and to chant God's names daily. Four years previously, Srila Prabhupada had advised me to follow these principles, and within six months, he said, I could be like the other devotees; all unnecessary things (anarthas), such as mundane movies and restaurants, would cease to attract me. "The whole human life is meant for purification," he said. I was interested in being purified, even though I did not really know what purification meant. I had gone to India with the Peace Corps hoping to find a higher level of consciousness. I could not believe that satisfying the senses was the all in all, yet I myself was bound by the senses. Later I could understand that yoga means becoming free from the dictation of the senses.

Upon returning to America, I started graduate school in geology, got married, and became somewhat entangled in domestic responsibilities, but I would very often think of my conversations with Srila Prabhupada and of his instructions. One of his primary instructions was simply to associate with the devotees, and this I gladly did. Devotees are different: by understanding that loving service to the Supreme Lord is the goal of life, they avoid getting caught up in the petty affairs of sense gratification and false ego. Visiting the temple was most refreshing. Gradually, my wife and I became friends with many devotees and wanted somehow to do some service for the movement. I sponsored a bhakti-yoga club at the university, and our apartment served as a way station for traveling parties of devotees.

As we followed Srila Prabhupada's instructions, even our eating became purified. In India I had told Srila Prabhupada that I could not offer my food as the devotees do because I did not understand that Krsna is God. So he told me simply to thank God for my food before eating. This we did, and finally our devotion matured, and we started actually offering our food to the Supreme Lord. What a wonderful feeling, to be cooking for the Supreme Lord! This actually freed us from the control of the tongue.

Finally, we were ready to become involved fully in temple life. By Krsna's grace, I obtained a job near a temple in Texas and began to take part in all the temple programs. In this way, all the anarthas disappeared, just as Srila Prabhupada had predicted. It was like having a burden lifted from our shoulders. We were no longer servants of our senses, but servants of God and His devotees. The value of Srila Prabhupada's instructions had become clear. A human being is not meant to labor like an ass and enjoy like a dog. Purification means coming to a higher level of consciousness.

Even though I have been initiated, I still admire my Godbrothers' spiritual awareness and wish to advance. Actually, initiation is the beginning.

 

Brahmatirtha dasa Adhikari

(Bob Cohen)

 

Houston, Texas

October 16, 1976